Well now I understand

oilFactotum

Oakman wrote:

Every time you claim that they shouldn't defend themselves

I have made no such claim. What I am saying is that I do not support this current military action. The Israeli leadership does not seem able to enuciate any strategic goals for this action. So, why do it? And why should I, as an American citizen, support it?

Oakman wrote:

Sooner or later they need to insure that the perpertrators are no longer capable of attacking them.

And this will not accomplish that goal. It will undoubtedly weaken the conventional capabilities of Hamas, but it will not make them incapable of attacking Israel.

Stan Shannon

Oakman wrote:

And you have insulted me far too often to start whining when I give you back a little of your stock-in-trade.

It is hardly insulting to point out historic errors and reminding someone of a certain level of loyalty due to their country.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

oilFactotum wrote:

The Israeli leadership does not seem able to enuciate any strategic goals for this action.

Their oft repeated strategic goal is to remove Hamas as a threat. They have used a number if different tactics to achieve that goal, but depending on the UN, Fatah, or Egypt has not worked. Instead, it gave Hamas a chance to arm itself with better weapons. Therefore, their more immediate goal is force Fatah, by whatever means necessary, to stop firing rockets into Israel. I have trouble believing you had never heard any of this before.

oilFactotum wrote:

And why should I, as an American citizen, support it?

Who asked you to? All the Israeli's wants from the US is to keep Hamas from achieving its goals in the UN.

oilFactotum wrote:

And this will not accomplish that goal.

Yep. And the surge will never work in Iraq,. either, right? And while we are at it, let's get rid of the police in this country because they are unable to eliminate crime.

oilFactotum wrote:

but it will not make them incapable of attacking Israel.

If they are weakened enough, Fatah will take care of the rest.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

Stan Shannon wrote:

reminding someone of a certain level of loyalty due to their country.

Really? Someone who says he can see no reason why I should love the USA presumes to 'remind' other people of the loyalty due their country? Someone who says he welcomes the tag of 'traitor' as he hopes and prays that the US falls apart in the next four years?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

oilFactotum

Oakman wrote:

Their oft repeated strategic goal is to remove Hamas as a threat.

Really? That's their strategic goal? I doubt it. Hamas is not the problem, it is merely a symptom. Palistinian radicalism will not disappear with Hamas. Israel weakened Fatah and they were replaced with Hamas in Gaza. That worked out real well, didn't it? :rolleyes:

Oakman wrote:

Therefore, their more immediate goal is force Fatah, by whatever means necessary, to stop firing rockets into Israel.

Correct me if I am wrong but you meant to say Hamas rather than Fatah? A little confused? Can't keep them straight in your head? On this we will have to agree to disagree about definitions - Stopping the rocket attacks is not a strategic goal.

Oakman wrote:

Who asked you to?

You did by demanding my mindless support of all Israeli actions lest I be labeled a jew-hater who wants to see them driven into the ocean.

Oakman wrote:

All the Israeli's wants from the US is to keep Hamas from achieving its goals in the UN.

Glad to know that they are a lot less demanding than many here in the sb.

Oakman wrote:

Yep. And the surge will never work in Iraq,. either, right?

It didn't. I'm suprised to see you've embraced the wingnut version of history. Perhaps you should refresh your memory and read the goals that Bush set for the surge(Hint: Politcal reconciliation).

Oakman wrote:

If they are weakened enough, Fatah will take care of the rest.

:laugh: :laugh: that is a good one!!

Oakman

oilFactotum wrote:

That's their strategic goal? I doubt it.

Take it up with them. You said they hadn't articulated their goal. They had.

oilFactotum wrote:

You did by demanding my mindless support of all Israeli actions lest I be labeled a jew-hater who wants to see them driven into the ocean.

Not at all. I think you have a mind. If I thought you were incapable of working your way towards the truth, I'd treat you like I do Ilion and Stan.

oilFactotum wrote:

Politcal reconciliation

Whether you have noticed or not, the Sunnis have become part of the Iraqi government and are very involved in the upcoming elections as well as becoming part of the Iraqi counter-insurgency.

oilFactotum wrote:

that is a good one!!

Weren't you whining because I wasn't treating your ideas with respect just a little while ago? Or do you maintain different standards for yourself?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

oilFactotum

Oakman wrote:

They had.

Again, we will have to disagree on the definition of strategic. Anthony Cordesman doesn't think the Israeli leadership has defined strategic goals[^] " If Israel has a credible ceasefire plan that could really secure Gaza, it is not apparent. If Israel has a plan that could credibly destroy and replace Hamas, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to help the Gazans and move them back towards peace, it is not apparent. If Israel has any plan to use US or other friendly influence productively, it not apparent."

Oakman wrote:

the truth

And what truth would that be?

Oakman wrote:

the Sunnis have become part of the Iraqi government

I imagine you think this is a serious response.

Oakman wrote:

Weren't you whining because I wasn't treating your ideas with respect just a little while ago?

Uh, no. Oh! You mean when you fabricated my position on Israel's right to exist. And when you fabricated my position on Israel's right to self-defense. But I shouldn't have laughed. It has been argued in some quarters that Israel thought that this might strengthen Fatah's political hand and weaken Hamas's. Unfortunately, to date, just the opposite has happened.

BoneSoft

If after all this time, you still insist on attempting logic, I have no choice but to point out to you how miserably you screw it up. Even if it is completely lost on you. And thanks for proving my point. My assumption wasn't based on nothing and was even proved right.

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Ilion

BoneSoft wrote:

And thanks for proving my point. My assumption wasn't based on nothing and was even proved right.

What a fool you are.

BoneSoft

Oakman wrote:

as he hopes and prays that the US falls apart in the next four years

To be fair, and I think you (if not many others) would agree that I'm not normally irrational... I have some mixed feelings here. There is a small part of me that understands and agrees with Stan there, mainly because I believe it's a real possibility. I didn't think anything of the sort when Clinton was elected, or re-elected. But right now, this is a slide to the destructive progressive left like we've never seen before (maybe in the Spanish Civil War or the like, but not in our country anyway). The hope in that dark idea, is that it would wake people up and put this country back on track (assuming there is a country left in the aftermath). Wake people up to the fact that their leftist talking points they've been spoon fed are all coming from a relatively small, very radical coalition that wants to destroy free America and turn it into a socialist nation. And the fact that they are so entrenched, it will likely take such a catastrophic event to uproot them. They've taken multiple generations to infiltrate schools, media, institutions, and all levels of government so they could take us apart one bite at a time without us even realizing it. And I think most progressives don't even realize that they are helping that cause. I don't think most of them are hell bent on destroying the country, I think they've been tricked into playing into a strategy that is hell bent on doing that. Take that as you will, but I felt I should try to clarify why some of us feel that way. I want the country to succeed, but I'm not sure that it's not already way too late to turn things around without a crash and burn. It's not sour grapes, it's a hope for a real future of freedom and American values, which many of us honestly feel has been in dire jeopardy, and just got flushed down the toilet with this farse of an election. But it will be a historic day. America is about to inaugurate the first socialist president who doesn't meet the Constitutional requirements to run for the office he stole. If I'm wrong, that would be fantastic. But if I'm right, he'll start nationalizing everything, silencing decenting media, placing his own people in key positions in the military, and at best ignoring the Constitution further, or at worse changing. Time will tell.

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XS

BoneSoft

:rolleyes: And round and round we go. :zzz:

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

Lost User

Ilíon wrote:

first invented by French (atheistic) socialists (of Jewish extraction).

No vague generalisations, who were these people? Give your sources. I understand your antipathy to atheists and socialists, but why is it necessary to mention their being French or 'of Jewish extraction'?

Bob Emmett