A Question of Style
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What, if any, is the practical reason for preferring spaces over tabs? I use tabs because when I need to increase or decrease an indent, it's only a single character that must be added or deleted. I noticed that the Google Guidelines disallow tabs, and use only spaces. What have they got against tabs?
so if you like to do the following:
switch (foo) { case fooEasy: return 77; case fooVeryHardIndeed: return 88; default: return 11; }different tab settings screw you up royally. In other words, tabs at the beginning of the line are ok, tabs on the middle of the text are not, but such a rule would be to complicated :) Second, there is "movement through tabs". Moving the caret right over a tab - does it move one space, or one tab? I prefer the current "visualize as spaces" for consistency (another in-depth discussion). If you do that, tabs become mere space savers, which is pointless today.
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Doh. Don't they offer their letter-sized binders full of fancy manuals anymore? :doh:
Luc Pattyn [Forum Guidelines] [My Articles]
I use ListBoxes for line-oriented text, and PictureBoxes for pictures, not drawings.
I've downloaded a bunch of PDFs, LSE is part of DECset now (with CMS and MMS), so it's in there I expect. I didn't see one for EDT.
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The backspace key. Spaces are great for non-modern and cross platform editors where the actual tab may not align correctly allowing properly formatted code to be the same in all editors. However, if you are exclusively using one editor it would be silly to not use tabs. There is nothing worse than having to hit the backspace key n-4 times.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.If you are using Visual Studio, you don't have to hit backspace multiple times...that's the beauty of shift+tab. You get the advantage of readable code in any editor, with the ease of formatting tabs.
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so if you like to do the following:
switch (foo) { case fooEasy: return 77; case fooVeryHardIndeed: return 88; default: return 11; }different tab settings screw you up royally. In other words, tabs at the beginning of the line are ok, tabs on the middle of the text are not, but such a rule would be to complicated :) Second, there is "movement through tabs". Moving the caret right over a tab - does it move one space, or one tab? I prefer the current "visualize as spaces" for consistency (another in-depth discussion). If you do that, tabs become mere space savers, which is pointless today.
I also recall helping a fellow student debug a COBOL program (1989, VAX/VMS, VT100), it turned out he had a TAB within some string data and couldn't figure why the system (I forget whether or not it was a run-time error) said it didn't have enough characters.
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The backspace key. Spaces are great for non-modern and cross platform editors where the actual tab may not align correctly allowing properly formatted code to be the same in all editors. However, if you are exclusively using one editor it would be silly to not use tabs. There is nothing worse than having to hit the backspace key n-4 times.
Need software developed? Offering C# development all over the United States, ERL GLOBAL, Inc is the only call you will have to make.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. -- Ernest Hemingway
Most of this sig is for Google, not ego.That is why there is a "Format Document" command (Under Edit | Advanced in VS, and in context menu in NetBeans) - so you can forget about spaces and tabs: do whatever you like to the source, than reformat entire file :-D And in multi-user environments (was Google mentioned?) spaces are the only common denominator between all editors' interpretations of what is a tab.
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What, if any, is the practical reason for preferring spaces over tabs? I use tabs because when I need to increase or decrease an indent, it's only a single character that must be added or deleted. I noticed that the Google Guidelines disallow tabs, and use only spaces. What have they got against tabs?
At first I used tabs, but then I switched to spaces because I had to write some tables (arrays of structs actually) inside a source file which had multiple columns and a lot of rows, and tabs just made that more difficult IMO.
There is sufficient light for those who desire to see, and there is sufficient darkness for those of a contrary disposition. Blaise Pascal
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What, if any, is the practical reason for preferring spaces over tabs? I use tabs because when I need to increase or decrease an indent, it's only a single character that must be added or deleted. I noticed that the Google Guidelines disallow tabs, and use only spaces. What have they got against tabs?
If the decision is up to me I prefer tabs (and tab size 4). The reason is that in any decent editor it's possible to configure the tab size so everyone can view and edit the source code with their own preferred tab size. Most document viewers have the same possibility, e.g. the viewer and compare tool in ClearCase. Naturally, if I encounter source code I have to edit and the indentation is based on spaces, I continue to use spaces in order not to mess up the source code. At my current assignment the coding guidelines states that spaces should be used and the "indentation size" is 2(!) spaces. In my opinion that indentation size is too small and makes the source code hard to read and follow. However, I only use tabs for indentation and possibly preceding comments at the end of a line. In all other cases I use spaces.
"It's supposed to be hard, otherwise anybody could do it!" - selfquote
"High speed never compensates for wrong direction!" - unknown -
Must admit, I prefer tabs, so I can indent 4 spaces, my colleague can indent 2 spaces - without changing source. All is well if using the same editor - but sometimes using notepad etc. stuffs up the tabs
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
TheArtistFormallyKnownAsMaxxx wrote:
I can indent 4 spaces, my colleague can indent 2 spaces
Different indents in the same source? :~
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TheArtistFormallyKnownAsMaxxx wrote:
I can indent 4 spaces, my colleague can indent 2 spaces
Different indents in the same source? :~
Yeah, because the editor interprets the tab to mean different things for different people. The underlying file consistently has 1 tab for an indent.
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Yeah, because the editor interprets the tab to mean different things for different people. The underlying file consistently has 1 tab for an indent.
:doh: I was thinking of tabs expanded to spaces.
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Take an anvil and a desert spoon. Place both in freezer overnight. Remove from freezer. Place one or more of your testicles on the anvil. Have a friend/colleague/significant other rap, sharply, on your testicle with the spoon. Still think
There is nothing worse than having to hit the backspace key n-4 times.
?
If I knew then what I know today, then I'd know the same now as I did then - then what would be the point? .\\axxx (That's an 'M')
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Not this again :rolleyes: Ramblings in no particular order: Because Windows and WYSIWYG and such are new-tech. I began programming with a dumb terminal, and the tabs were set there (not in software), and that remains true when I use OpenVMS (except now I use a terminal emulator). I've opened too many files only to find the code misaligned because the last person to touch it used TABs. On Windows I mostly use Edit, which gives four SPACEs per tab. I generally avoid Notepad because it keeps the TABs (eight SPACEs wide X| ). Of course, as long as a file uses one or the other and not a mixture of both it should be OK, but it's easier to untabbify than to tabbify. With SPACEs you know what you're getting.
I used to use 3 spaces for indenting when I worked with punched cards and paper tape. That way, you could still have reasonable levels of nesting within the 80 chars on a card. Now that I have disc files, I use the TAB key - it is only one key stroke (which saves on storage) and it does not matter so much if I exceed 80 chars per line. I even allow myself to reach the 80th column when writing comment lines - in the punch card days, cols 73 to 80 were saved for sequence numbers so you could resort your deck after dropping them; I even (shock horror) allow in-line comments to slightly break the 80 column rule; if more than slightly, the comment goes on its own line with the code underneath. To preserve visual formatting regardless of how different editors display TAB, I use TAB for indenting but then I use spaces inside the code / comments after the first non-TAB character. This keeps tables / type declarations etc lined up.
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I am pretty sure I don't want to party with you. ;-)
Don't let my name fool you. That's my job.
Given that he's into testicles and anvils, probably not.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
If you are using Visual Studio, you don't have to hit backspace multiple times...that's the beauty of shift+tab. You get the advantage of readable code in any editor, with the ease of formatting tabs.
Mike Marynowski wrote:
that's the beauty of shift+tab
The problem is, at least at first, remembering the shift part, the thing can end up looking like a dogs breakfast if you are a non-touch typist.
Henry Minute If you open a can of worms, any viable solution *MUST* involve a larger can.
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What, if any, is the practical reason for preferring spaces over tabs? I use tabs because when I need to increase or decrease an indent, it's only a single character that must be added or deleted. I noticed that the Google Guidelines disallow tabs, and use only spaces. What have they got against tabs?
I used to be a tab fan, cause of the one backspace instead of 4. But over the last few years i've opened too many code files that have been edited by several people. Even when there's a 'standard' within a team to use 4 spaces or use tabs or whatever, some people insist on being different. If you can get everyone using spaces then there's a better chance that your indentation will stay aligned after several people have edited the same code. IMHO
Pete If minds had anuses, blogging would be what your mind would do when it had to take a dump Maddox
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After all the years of having to press the SPACE bar four times, having the editor insert four SPACEs for a TAB is a vast relief; having to press DELETE four times is not that big a deal.
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
non-modern and cross platform editors
That's what I use primarily.
When I'm not writing in a .NET language I use a cross platform editor too, Vim. It has a "modeline" feature where you can put a special line in (beginning with your language's comment char) that specifies the tab stop
:: Windows batch/cmd script example, typically the last line in a file
:: shiftwidth specifies the width of auto-indenting
:: vim:tabstop=4:shiftwidth=4:noexpandtab# Perl example
vim:tabstop=4:shiftwidth=4:noexpandtab
Another popular cross platform editor (probably friendlier than Vim for a VS user), emacs, has a substantially similar capability though I personally do not know its syntax. Happily, vim also has the "retab" command so if someone sends me a file indented with spaces I can typically fix that in an instant :-\ Vin also has all number of features for auto expanding tabs with spaces, making the backspace key delete n number of spaces, etc... (and I'm reasonably confident that emacs mirrors this capability) so my main point is people should use whatever they want and fix the indenting to the project's code formatting rules before commit. Let your editor empower you! Hopefully someday I will figure out how to embed vim into VS which it can supposedly do.:cool:
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What, if any, is the practical reason for preferring spaces over tabs? I use tabs because when I need to increase or decrease an indent, it's only a single character that must be added or deleted. I noticed that the Google Guidelines disallow tabs, and use only spaces. What have they got against tabs?
I can only see worrying about spaces vs tabs if multiple programmers use multiple editors which handle them differently. I like spacing at multiples of 4 for my code. I just hit tab and let the editor (in Dev Studio) worry about spaces or tabs. I do sometimes see problems if I cut and paste code into something else - a document or email...
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If the decision is up to me I prefer tabs (and tab size 4). The reason is that in any decent editor it's possible to configure the tab size so everyone can view and edit the source code with their own preferred tab size. Most document viewers have the same possibility, e.g. the viewer and compare tool in ClearCase. Naturally, if I encounter source code I have to edit and the indentation is based on spaces, I continue to use spaces in order not to mess up the source code. At my current assignment the coding guidelines states that spaces should be used and the "indentation size" is 2(!) spaces. In my opinion that indentation size is too small and makes the source code hard to read and follow. However, I only use tabs for indentation and possibly preceding comments at the end of a line. In all other cases I use spaces.
"It's supposed to be hard, otherwise anybody could do it!" - selfquote
"High speed never compensates for wrong direction!" - unknownTwo spaces is my preference - even with dual wide screens to look at. Interestingly with modern IDEs formatting everything so well I do think that the point is pretty overcooked. When using VS I tend to let it do the formatting and you know there is a syntax problem if a line doesn't indent itself. Let the IDE handle the indents. Admittedly I started web development in the mid-90s using text editors. When I look back at 10 year old web code that I've inflicted on the world there does tend to be almost no whitespace in evidence. But now perhaps I'm prepared to ease into the pipe and slippers of the luxury of 4 indents for a tab (whether spaces or not). But an indent that big just seems too, well, big.
"If you reward everyone, there will not be enough to go around, so you offer a reward to one in order to encourage everyone." Mei Yaochen in the 'Doing Battle' section of Sun Tzu's: Art of War. .
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Two spaces is my preference - even with dual wide screens to look at. Interestingly with modern IDEs formatting everything so well I do think that the point is pretty overcooked. When using VS I tend to let it do the formatting and you know there is a syntax problem if a line doesn't indent itself. Let the IDE handle the indents. Admittedly I started web development in the mid-90s using text editors. When I look back at 10 year old web code that I've inflicted on the world there does tend to be almost no whitespace in evidence. But now perhaps I'm prepared to ease into the pipe and slippers of the luxury of 4 indents for a tab (whether spaces or not). But an indent that big just seems too, well, big.
"If you reward everyone, there will not be enough to go around, so you offer a reward to one in order to encourage everyone." Mei Yaochen in the 'Doing Battle' section of Sun Tzu's: Art of War. .
[ftw]melvin wrote:
But an indent that big just seems too, well, big.
From my point of view that's a matter of opinion. ;) I don't argue with an opinion, but when people starts to argue that "otherwise the lines become too long and will exceed the allowed 80 chars per line" I usually get fired up. My response is almost always "rewrite your code and make it readable and beautiful". Possibly followed by "if your code has that much indentation your function has far too much complexity inside it and you should split it up into several functions", or "choose variable names that are smaller than 30+ chars". Afterwards people usually realize that the indentation size is just a matter of opinion. It's all about readability and everyone find code written the same way they write code themselves to be the most readable and that's my point when using tabs instead of spaces. Switching between tabs and spaces for indentation is fairly easy. But when it comes to where the curly braces should be put, having a space before a left/right parentheses and so on, it's not that easy. I remember that SlickEdit at least had a "code beautifier" which I fell in love with, but I haven't used SlickEdit for more than a decade so either it got improved or thrown into the bin.
"It's supposed to be hard, otherwise anybody could do it!" - selfquote
"High speed never compensates for wrong direction!" - unknown -
When I'm not writing in a .NET language I use a cross platform editor too, Vim. It has a "modeline" feature where you can put a special line in (beginning with your language's comment char) that specifies the tab stop
:: Windows batch/cmd script example, typically the last line in a file
:: shiftwidth specifies the width of auto-indenting
:: vim:tabstop=4:shiftwidth=4:noexpandtab# Perl example
vim:tabstop=4:shiftwidth=4:noexpandtab
Another popular cross platform editor (probably friendlier than Vim for a VS user), emacs, has a substantially similar capability though I personally do not know its syntax. Happily, vim also has the "retab" command so if someone sends me a file indented with spaces I can typically fix that in an instant :-\ Vin also has all number of features for auto expanding tabs with spaces, making the backspace key delete n number of spaces, etc... (and I'm reasonably confident that emacs mirrors this capability) so my main point is people should use whatever they want and fix the indenting to the project's code formatting rules before commit. Let your editor empower you! Hopefully someday I will figure out how to embed vim into VS which it can supposedly do.:cool:
I just installed and experimented with SciTE yesterday, it has settings for each language.
aquatarian wrote:
and fix the indenting to the project's code formatting rules before commit.
If only. :sigh: Eventually I wrote my own untab utility. It would be better if the code library system performed a beautify action to ensure standards compliance and eliminate (most) format-only changes.
