This is defense? [modified]
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Steve_Harris wrote:
but this response lacks any regard for the civilians of Gaza
Isn't that kind of the core issue ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
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Asshat, better to not attack Gaza and keep having 20+ rockets a day land in Israel? Because Hamas is just "defending" itself then, right? This is a sound message from Israel to the Palestinian people, "You own Gaza. it is yours. You choose your own government and which political parties you support. if you support Hamas while they launch rockets, then it is the same as if you launched them yourselves. If they hit us, we will now hit you" Why is it you people forget that the Palestinian people are a self-governing society? Let them get out of their houses and kick Hamas out, or this is the alternative.
OK, I'm breaking my vow of silence for 2 reasons. 1. I'm not cussing you so try to keep this civil unless you can't but resort to that. If you'd like to get into a cussing match, I'll be more than happy to oblige. 2. NEVER in my history have I advocated Hamas' cause. You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact. So read the damned postings, not once did it mention anything pro-Hamas. The one thing I've constantly argued for is the complete and utter lack of effort on Israel's part to try and maintain a semblance of humanity. Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned, attacking humanitarian targets and hospitals, places where civilians have been cowering in terror, wow, Israel really is above the level of Hamas, not with respect to the terrorist ideology, because I fail to see that their tactics are any different they simply have more effective and more powerful weapons. Another difference is that Hamas manages to kill or terrorize a handful with any operation they conduct, but what I will label as Israeli state sanctioned terrorism dishes out the same to a thousand and more. You tell me where is the difference? Hamas attacks civilians as well as military targets (sometimes) and so does the Israeli army. You're telling me that 1/3 of the casualties being children (ages 16 and below) is any different? When you factor in the women, the statistics climb to a majority. Some effective means. And don't give me this crap of Hamas using human shields and all that as an excuse for their actions. So they use human shields, you barrage the whole neighborhood killing 50 civilians to reach possibly one militant? No, under no circumstances can you justify such action.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think? War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you. The idea of war is to accomplish diplomatic goals by the use of force. If Hamas wanted to play patticake, then they should have announced it rather than proudly declaring the cease-fire to be null and void, firing rockets into their neighbor, and daring Israel to do anything about it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Steve
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Steve_Harris wrote:
but this response lacks any regard for the civilians of Gaza
Isn't that kind of the core issue ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
That's what I'm trying to point out, but many seem to think that some civilian deaths are acceptable. The reality is that it is sadly unavoidable. But this outrageous use of force makes any so called attempts a farce. Jon, for all the respect I have for him, seems to miss construe my words as support for Hamas which is as far from the truth as this "defense" being a defense strategy.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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So killing 300+ children, shelling journalists' and UN buildings and firing banned white phosphorous shells into densely populated civilian areas while blockading the borders and preventing the supply of food and medicine is a measured response, is it? Don't get me wrong: firing rockets into Israel is totally unacceptable, but this response lacks any regard for the civilians of Gaza. On top of that, unless there is a political solution which involves the creation of a Palestinian state, the rockets simply will not stop, and 1000+ Palestinians will have been killed by Israel for nothing. Is Israel ready to accept a Palestinian state? I wonder.
Why is this statement or its equivalent:
Steve_Harris wrote:
Don't get me wrong: firing rockets into Israel is totally unacceptable,
always followed by this one or its equivalent:
Steve_Harris wrote:
but
The only "but" in combat that you worry about is your own and maybe your buddies'. Whether you are aware of it or not, the old saw that I have repeated more than once is true. The difference, in Gaza, between a terrorist and a civilian is that the civilian's AK47 is in the next room. In Vietnam there were kids as young as ten throwing grenades as soldiers off duty and drinking a beer in a bar. I doubt that it is any difference in the land of the suicide bombers.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Is Israel ready to accept a Palestinian state? I wonder.
Will they ever be given a chance to? Not while a terrorist organization runs it. I note that the Israelis have gone out of their way to support Abbas, and he has returned the favor as much as possible given the suicidal tendencies of many of his "civilians." It is the behavior of the West Bank Government that gives me hope for a peace treaty, and the behavior of many of the civilians on the West Bank that proves that claims of the population of Gaza being held hostage by Hamas are bullshit.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
I should refresh before posting, you beat me to the point.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
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How would Israel respond if another country tried to change its government by force? How would you respond if China (for example) tried to change the government of the US by force? If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected. The whole of the Middle East needs to learn to live together in peace through peace, not to live together in peace through war.
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We aren't trying to change their government, we're trying to have their government attack our citizens. What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
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EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
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We aren't trying to change their government, we're trying to have their government attack our citizens. What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
Again, I ask, what is Hamas Israel targetting? Schools, which after 3 days they admitted was a mistake. Humanitarian agencies, civilian homes, hospitals, food stores, fuel stores. If we want to go historical, you just count how many sources of livelihoods, how many pregnant Palestinian women were stopped from reaching the hospital or were killed outright and their bellies ripped open to see what the gender of the fetus was.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
So you have Israeli military personnel hanging from the wings of their aircraft shooting those rockets you're talking about? Banned weapons are OK? Shelling journalists? Children? Women? Buildings where these civilians are known to have been taking refuge are valid targets?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Again, I ask, what is Hamas Israel targetting? Schools, which after 3 days they admitted was a mistake. Humanitarian agencies, civilian homes, hospitals, food stores, fuel stores. If we want to go historical, you just count how many sources of livelihoods, how many pregnant Palestinian women were stopped from reaching the hospital or were killed outright and their bellies ripped open to see what the gender of the fetus was.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis. Don't forget the biggest Muslim slaughters where committed by Muslim governments, such as Iraq or Iran. Hamas targets whatever they can hit, they dig tunnels to get into Israel and kidnap children. They launch rockets and hope they hit targets. They dance in the streets after murders and people die (September 11th anyone? How you all forget). Israel simply says this is enough, they have to protect their own people now.
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Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
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EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
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Steve_Harris wrote:
Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
How many civilians have been massacred?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Near a thousand and the numbers are climbing quite rapidly and they'll climb even more after the injured die from wounds that could have been cured because of the lack of humanitarian aid that does not exist on the ground because of tactics such as shelling ambulances, hospitals and forcing ships carrying aid to return and in international waters no less.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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So you have Israeli military personnel hanging from the wings of their aircraft shooting those rockets you're talking about? Banned weapons are OK? Shelling journalists? Children? Women? Buildings where these civilians are known to have been taking refuge are valid targets?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false.
Gets my 5. :)