This is defense? [modified]
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How would Israel respond if another country tried to change its government by force? How would you respond if China (for example) tried to change the government of the US by force? If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected. The whole of the Middle East needs to learn to live together in peace through peace, not to live together in peace through war.
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We aren't trying to change their government, we're trying to have their government attack our citizens. What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
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EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
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We aren't trying to change their government, we're trying to have their government attack our citizens. What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
Again, I ask, what is Hamas Israel targetting? Schools, which after 3 days they admitted was a mistake. Humanitarian agencies, civilian homes, hospitals, food stores, fuel stores. If we want to go historical, you just count how many sources of livelihoods, how many pregnant Palestinian women were stopped from reaching the hospital or were killed outright and their bellies ripped open to see what the gender of the fetus was.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
So you have Israeli military personnel hanging from the wings of their aircraft shooting those rockets you're talking about? Banned weapons are OK? Shelling journalists? Children? Women? Buildings where these civilians are known to have been taking refuge are valid targets?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Again, I ask, what is Hamas Israel targetting? Schools, which after 3 days they admitted was a mistake. Humanitarian agencies, civilian homes, hospitals, food stores, fuel stores. If we want to go historical, you just count how many sources of livelihoods, how many pregnant Palestinian women were stopped from reaching the hospital or were killed outright and their bellies ripped open to see what the gender of the fetus was.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis. Don't forget the biggest Muslim slaughters where committed by Muslim governments, such as Iraq or Iran. Hamas targets whatever they can hit, they dig tunnels to get into Israel and kidnap children. They launch rockets and hope they hit targets. They dance in the streets after murders and people die (September 11th anyone? How you all forget). Israel simply says this is enough, they have to protect their own people now.
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Precision guided missiles? These are shoulder-to-air rocket launchers, once a rockets been launched the person could have moved a half of a kilometer. There goes that "defense" strategy. How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza. Wait, we did that too. What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves, how much longer does Israel wait?
EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
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EliottA wrote:
What would the US do if China was launching 20+ missiles everyday at their cities, targeting schools?
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers, taking care to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. I don't see Israel doing that.
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
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Steve_Harris wrote:
Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
How many civilians have been massacred?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Near a thousand and the numbers are climbing quite rapidly and they'll climb even more after the injured die from wounds that could have been cured because of the lack of humanitarian aid that does not exist on the ground because of tactics such as shelling ambulances, hospitals and forcing ships carrying aid to return and in international waters no less.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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So you have Israeli military personnel hanging from the wings of their aircraft shooting those rockets you're talking about? Banned weapons are OK? Shelling journalists? Children? Women? Buildings where these civilians are known to have been taking refuge are valid targets?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false.
Gets my 5. :)
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EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
Steve_Harris wrote:
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
The United Nations gave that land to us, it was under a British Mandate before that. The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people. We gave them land, it was our choice.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
All those things where brought up due to increase of Terrorist activites from the Palestinian people and Hamas. The wall wasn't there 10 years ago, remember that. We moved our settlements, remember that too.
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What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis. Don't forget the biggest Muslim slaughters where committed by Muslim governments, such as Iraq or Iran. Hamas targets whatever they can hit, they dig tunnels to get into Israel and kidnap children. They launch rockets and hope they hit targets. They dance in the streets after murders and people die (September 11th anyone? How you all forget). Israel simply says this is enough, they have to protect their own people now.
EliottA wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis.
I'm sorry, you obviously don't know the Haganah, a group that simply roamed the country side causing terror to the people living in farms, trying to evict them. The haganah, and other such groups, became the Israeli army. Look it up, its history.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Steve_Harris wrote:
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers,
ROFL - and you believe this would be all that happened because?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Because they have them, and the surveillance technology to make them effective, and also because they care what the world thinks. I don't think that the people running Israel do.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think? War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you. The idea of war is to accomplish diplomatic goals by the use of force. If Hamas wanted to play patticake, then they should have announced it rather than proudly declaring the cease-fire to be null and void, firing rockets into their neighbor, and daring Israel to do anything about it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
Oakman wrote:
War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you.
True, but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Oakman wrote:
diplomatic goals
Whatever the goals are must agree with the concept of fair play. Both parties have their own diplomatic reasons for doing what they are doing yet only one side has the ear of the POTUS, but with one week left, a new POTUS will exist and may have both ears open for the task of hearing, assuming his election pledges stand true.
Oakman wrote:
Hamas
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples. Alas, it appears to be an unfortunate decision by the people that may be hard to overturn what with Hamas being thugs in all but name.
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Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis.
I'm sorry, you obviously don't know the Haganah, a group that simply roamed the country side causing terror to the people living in farms, trying to evict them. The haganah, and other such groups, became the Israeli army. Look it up, its history.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Want to talk about history, Ok. How many times did the surrounding Arab countries attack Israel with no warning, and with no cause? 7? 8? How many times did they do it on Jewish Holidays? 2? 3? How many times did Arab terrorists kidnap Israeli's through Plane Hijackings or Kidnappings? 20? 40? Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
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EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
This is the same organization that has been spewing anti-Israel remarks throughout the entire conflict? Yeah, they totally created the appearance of unbiasedness. Arafat can rise from his grave right now and say that the Israels's are using chemical weapons for all I care, doesn't make it any more true.