This is defense? [modified]
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Steve_Harris wrote:
Yes, but some people seem to think that civilian massacres are an acceptable consequence of war.
How many civilians have been massacred?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Near a thousand and the numbers are climbing quite rapidly and they'll climb even more after the injured die from wounds that could have been cured because of the lack of humanitarian aid that does not exist on the ground because of tactics such as shelling ambulances, hospitals and forcing ships carrying aid to return and in international waters no less.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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So you have Israeli military personnel hanging from the wings of their aircraft shooting those rockets you're talking about? Banned weapons are OK? Shelling journalists? Children? Women? Buildings where these civilians are known to have been taking refuge are valid targets?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false.
Gets my 5. :)
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EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
Steve_Harris wrote:
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
The United Nations gave that land to us, it was under a British Mandate before that. The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people. We gave them land, it was our choice.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
All those things where brought up due to increase of Terrorist activites from the Palestinian people and Hamas. The wall wasn't there 10 years ago, remember that. We moved our settlements, remember that too.
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What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis. Don't forget the biggest Muslim slaughters where committed by Muslim governments, such as Iraq or Iran. Hamas targets whatever they can hit, they dig tunnels to get into Israel and kidnap children. They launch rockets and hope they hit targets. They dance in the streets after murders and people die (September 11th anyone? How you all forget). Israel simply says this is enough, they have to protect their own people now.
EliottA wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis.
I'm sorry, you obviously don't know the Haganah, a group that simply roamed the country side causing terror to the people living in farms, trying to evict them. The haganah, and other such groups, became the Israeli army. Look it up, its history.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Steve_Harris wrote:
They would use precision-guided weapons to take out the launchers,
ROFL - and you believe this would be all that happened because?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Because they have them, and the surveillance technology to make them effective, and also because they care what the world thinks. I don't think that the people running Israel do.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I couldn't care less what anybody else thinks
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think? War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you. The idea of war is to accomplish diplomatic goals by the use of force. If Hamas wanted to play patticake, then they should have announced it rather than proudly declaring the cease-fire to be null and void, firing rockets into their neighbor, and daring Israel to do anything about it.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
Oakman wrote:
War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you.
True, but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Oakman wrote:
diplomatic goals
Whatever the goals are must agree with the concept of fair play. Both parties have their own diplomatic reasons for doing what they are doing yet only one side has the ear of the POTUS, but with one week left, a new POTUS will exist and may have both ears open for the task of hearing, assuming his election pledges stand true.
Oakman wrote:
Hamas
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples. Alas, it appears to be an unfortunate decision by the people that may be hard to overturn what with Hamas being thugs in all but name.
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Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If Palestinian women where cut up, it wasn't by Israelis.
I'm sorry, you obviously don't know the Haganah, a group that simply roamed the country side causing terror to the people living in farms, trying to evict them. The haganah, and other such groups, became the Israeli army. Look it up, its history.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Want to talk about history, Ok. How many times did the surrounding Arab countries attack Israel with no warning, and with no cause? 7? 8? How many times did they do it on Jewish Holidays? 2? 3? How many times did Arab terrorists kidnap Israeli's through Plane Hijackings or Kidnappings? 20? 40? Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
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EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
This is the same organization that has been spewing anti-Israel remarks throughout the entire conflict? Yeah, they totally created the appearance of unbiasedness. Arafat can rise from his grave right now and say that the Israels's are using chemical weapons for all I care, doesn't make it any more true.
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Want to talk about history, Ok. How many times did the surrounding Arab countries attack Israel with no warning, and with no cause? 7? 8? How many times did they do it on Jewish Holidays? 2? 3? How many times did Arab terrorists kidnap Israeli's through Plane Hijackings or Kidnappings? 20? 40? Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
EliottA wrote:
Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
If you count incidents, your right, but if you count by sheer "value" you'd be dead wrong. I could start with this and keep on going http://alcor.concordia.ca/~pal/History/Villages/drya@vil.html[^] Israel talks about Shalit (spelling?) what about the thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails? Numbers talk in the vicinity of 11,000 with a sizable component being women.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Steve_Harris wrote:
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
The United Nations gave that land to us, it was under a British Mandate before that. The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people. We gave them land, it was our choice.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
All those things where brought up due to increase of Terrorist activites from the Palestinian people and Hamas. The wall wasn't there 10 years ago, remember that. We moved our settlements, remember that too.
EliottA wrote:
The United Nations gave that land to us
It was not the UN's or the British's land to give, it was the land of the people who lived there, who were not the Israelis. Just like Pakistan and all other rapidly-created modern states which divided up pre-existing countries, arbitrarily chopping up countries and giving them away foments trouble and causes resentment which can surface sometimes decades later. The Israelis had no right to live there in their own new country any more than as a Celt I have the right to go live in a new country carved out of Switzerland and Austria. That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I'd expect that, only it wasn't Hamas that said that they were, it was the UN/UNRWA. I'd take their word any day over any other active member in this conflict.
This is the same organization that has been spewing anti-Israel remarks throughout the entire conflict? Yeah, they totally created the appearance of unbiasedness. Arafat can rise from his grave right now and say that the Israels's are using chemical weapons for all I care, doesn't make it any more true.
Um, did you read my post before replying? How was the UN/UNRWA even spewing anything against Israel? FYI Arafat was a fricking ass.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Steve_Harris wrote:
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
The United Nations gave that land to us, it was under a British Mandate before that. The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people. We gave them land, it was our choice.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
All those things where brought up due to increase of Terrorist activites from the Palestinian people and Hamas. The wall wasn't there 10 years ago, remember that. We moved our settlements, remember that too.
EliottA wrote:
The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people
And Israel was?
EliottA wrote:
We moved our settlements, remember that too.
BS, a primary cause of the increased militant activity and the increased rift is because of the increase in the number and size of settlements as well as the wall being set up.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Defence is one thing, they have gonne too far this time.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Quite, and you'd expect a "democratic" nation to know that. Honestly? I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes. Though in reality, the US will most likely step in to stop it from reaching fruition.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
The United Nations gave that land to us
It was not the UN's or the British's land to give, it was the land of the people who lived there, who were not the Israelis. Just like Pakistan and all other rapidly-created modern states which divided up pre-existing countries, arbitrarily chopping up countries and giving them away foments trouble and causes resentment which can surface sometimes decades later. The Israelis had no right to live there in their own new country any more than as a Celt I have the right to go live in a new country carved out of Switzerland and Austria. That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
Steve_Harris wrote:
That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
If you are suggesting Israel has to learn to live with consistent bombardment of rockets into the civilian populous, you are severely distorted.
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OK, I'm breaking my vow of silence for 2 reasons. 1. I'm not cussing you so try to keep this civil unless you can't but resort to that. If you'd like to get into a cussing match, I'll be more than happy to oblige. 2. NEVER in my history have I advocated Hamas' cause. You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact. So read the damned postings, not once did it mention anything pro-Hamas. The one thing I've constantly argued for is the complete and utter lack of effort on Israel's part to try and maintain a semblance of humanity. Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned, attacking humanitarian targets and hospitals, places where civilians have been cowering in terror, wow, Israel really is above the level of Hamas, not with respect to the terrorist ideology, because I fail to see that their tactics are any different they simply have more effective and more powerful weapons. Another difference is that Hamas manages to kill or terrorize a handful with any operation they conduct, but what I will label as Israeli state sanctioned terrorism dishes out the same to a thousand and more. You tell me where is the difference? Hamas attacks civilians as well as military targets (sometimes) and so does the Israeli army. You're telling me that 1/3 of the casualties being children (ages 16 and below) is any different? When you factor in the women, the statistics climb to a majority. Some effective means. And don't give me this crap of Hamas using human shields and all that as an excuse for their actions. So they use human shields, you barrage the whole neighborhood killing 50 civilians to reach possibly one militant? No, under no circumstances can you justify such action.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact.
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I fail to see that their tactics are any different
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
ages 16 and below
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
When you factor in the women
Same as above.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
No, under no circumstances can you justify such action
So all Hamas has to do to operate with impunity is to convince 50 civilians to stand next to each rocket site or mortar? Israel then can have no choice but to take swimming lessons? You have got to be real. Human shields are a despicable weapon, but it is not the other side's fault when they get hurt. When the U.S. used bombs in Bosnia to help free the indigenous Muslim population, the other side used human shields. Should the NATO forces in that case have simply given up and gone home leaving Milosevic in total control? How many Muslim would have been alive and free two years later if they had?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Quite, and you'd expect a "democratic" nation to know that. Honestly? I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes. Though in reality, the US will most likely step in to stop it from reaching fruition.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false.
Thank you Jon. You ought to add Adnan to that list.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?