This is defense? [modified]
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Steve_Harris wrote:
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
The United Nations gave that land to us, it was under a British Mandate before that. The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people. We gave them land, it was our choice.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
All those things where brought up due to increase of Terrorist activites from the Palestinian people and Hamas. The wall wasn't there 10 years ago, remember that. We moved our settlements, remember that too.
EliottA wrote:
The Palestinian people where never a Self governing people
And Israel was?
EliottA wrote:
We moved our settlements, remember that too.
BS, a primary cause of the increased militant activity and the increased rift is because of the increase in the number and size of settlements as well as the wall being set up.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Defence is one thing, they have gonne too far this time.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Quite, and you'd expect a "democratic" nation to know that. Honestly? I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes. Though in reality, the US will most likely step in to stop it from reaching fruition.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
The United Nations gave that land to us
It was not the UN's or the British's land to give, it was the land of the people who lived there, who were not the Israelis. Just like Pakistan and all other rapidly-created modern states which divided up pre-existing countries, arbitrarily chopping up countries and giving them away foments trouble and causes resentment which can surface sometimes decades later. The Israelis had no right to live there in their own new country any more than as a Celt I have the right to go live in a new country carved out of Switzerland and Austria. That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
Steve_Harris wrote:
That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
If you are suggesting Israel has to learn to live with consistent bombardment of rockets into the civilian populous, you are severely distorted.
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OK, I'm breaking my vow of silence for 2 reasons. 1. I'm not cussing you so try to keep this civil unless you can't but resort to that. If you'd like to get into a cussing match, I'll be more than happy to oblige. 2. NEVER in my history have I advocated Hamas' cause. You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact. So read the damned postings, not once did it mention anything pro-Hamas. The one thing I've constantly argued for is the complete and utter lack of effort on Israel's part to try and maintain a semblance of humanity. Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned, attacking humanitarian targets and hospitals, places where civilians have been cowering in terror, wow, Israel really is above the level of Hamas, not with respect to the terrorist ideology, because I fail to see that their tactics are any different they simply have more effective and more powerful weapons. Another difference is that Hamas manages to kill or terrorize a handful with any operation they conduct, but what I will label as Israeli state sanctioned terrorism dishes out the same to a thousand and more. You tell me where is the difference? Hamas attacks civilians as well as military targets (sometimes) and so does the Israeli army. You're telling me that 1/3 of the casualties being children (ages 16 and below) is any different? When you factor in the women, the statistics climb to a majority. Some effective means. And don't give me this crap of Hamas using human shields and all that as an excuse for their actions. So they use human shields, you barrage the whole neighborhood killing 50 civilians to reach possibly one militant? No, under no circumstances can you justify such action.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact.
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I fail to see that their tactics are any different
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
ages 16 and below
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
When you factor in the women
Same as above.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
No, under no circumstances can you justify such action
So all Hamas has to do to operate with impunity is to convince 50 civilians to stand next to each rocket site or mortar? Israel then can have no choice but to take swimming lessons? You have got to be real. Human shields are a despicable weapon, but it is not the other side's fault when they get hurt. When the U.S. used bombs in Bosnia to help free the indigenous Muslim population, the other side used human shields. Should the NATO forces in that case have simply given up and gone home leaving Milosevic in total control? How many Muslim would have been alive and free two years later if they had?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Quite, and you'd expect a "democratic" nation to know that. Honestly? I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes. Though in reality, the US will most likely step in to stop it from reaching fruition.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Evidently you seem to think we care what you think...
Given the tendency my posts have to get voted upon, one way or the other, I rest fairly sure that some folks care. For what it is worth, I care very much what Mustafa thinks and what he writes. He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false. I even care, a little bit, what you think. ;P
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
He is a good and brave man in an agonizing position, and I believe that he is living proof that the canards that Ilion and Stan spout so freely about Muslims are false.
Thank you Jon. You ought to add Adnan to that list.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Because they have them, and the surveillance technology to make them effective, and also because they care what the world thinks. I don't think that the people running Israel do.
Steve_Harris wrote:
they care what the world thinks.
The day after China lobbed missles into the U.S. WWIII will have started. It may be a limited war, at least at first, but no President could afford to allow that to happen, and no Chinese Premier, having taken the first step would ever back down short of being militarily defeated.
Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do
You may be right. They certainly have seen what world opinion has done to stop attacks against them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Steve_Harris wrote:
That said, Israel is there now and the whole region has to learn to live together as things are.
If you are suggesting Israel has to learn to live with consistent bombardment of rockets into the civilian populous, you are severely distorted.
And if you think that Palestine has to learn to live with having hundreds of children massacred then so are you, but that's not what I meant: Israel and Palestine have to learn to accept and respect each others' existence.
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mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?
I believe you are right. The first person to order nuclear weapons used in the middle east will be a Muslim terrorist. The next person to do so will be the Prime Minister of Israel and he's got somewhere between 200 and 400 available. To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous, they bombard areas about to be hit with leaflets warning civilians to leave the area. Hamas and the people use human shields as a deterrent because it has worked in the past, Israel doesn't care now. There is a fair warning to leave. In every war, hundreads of thousands of peoples have died, this is in the low thousands. I would call that restraint considering what Israel could have done.
EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
that is immaterial, white phospherous is not banned.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
Steve_Harris wrote:
removing the wall
why in the fuck would you do that? read the news. before the wall Israeli citizens were being blown up daily by homicide bombers.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Near a thousand and the numbers are climbing quite rapidly and they'll climb even more after the injured die from wounds that could have been cured because of the lack of humanitarian aid that does not exist on the ground because of tactics such as shelling ambulances, hospitals and forcing ships carrying aid to return and in international waters no less.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Near a thousand
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza. Should I assume therefore that there are no Hamas in the Strip? Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals. And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Because they have them, and the surveillance technology to make them effective, and also because they care what the world thinks. I don't think that the people running Israel do.
Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do.
of course not, the world thinks they should be exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes
Don't you think that Hamas should be tried first?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Certainly the both of them. I'm not at any time saying that Hamas are being saints.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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That's what I'm trying to point out, but many seem to think that some civilian deaths are acceptable. The reality is that it is sadly unavoidable. But this outrageous use of force makes any so called attempts a farce. Jon, for all the respect I have for him, seems to miss construe my words as support for Hamas which is as far from the truth as this "defense" being a defense strategy.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
The facts are these: Israel gave up land for PEACE! So Hamas takes over as the rulers of Gaza. The people (those now being killed along with Hamas) let them be the rulers. Hamas sends rockets into Israel (killing innocent people there as well). Israel determines that enough is enough and is (probably) determined to exterminate everything and everyone that has anything to do with Hamas. Those being "massacred" are the ones who allowed the seeds of this violence to grow. There is an old saying --- "You reap what you sow". The harvest is now occurring. From my perspective, the Israelis should wipe out everything and anything that has Hamas connected to it. If I were the Israeli leaders, I would also take back every square inch of Gaza that they gave up to promote "peace". Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE???? War is hell, and bombs and rockets have no conscience. They kill if you are close to them when they go off. So if you don't want to be killed as an "innocent", then get the hell away from where Hamas is firing their damn rockets! Doesn't take a degree to figure that out! Even the stupid UN forces realized this when they allowed Hamas to fire rockets from within the UN compound! But we all know the UN forces are worthless and impotent to do anything but stand by and watch.
AF Pilot
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Steve_Harris wrote:
removing the wall
why in the fuck would you do that? read the news. before the wall Israeli citizens were being blown up daily by homicide bombers.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
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Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do.
of course not, the world thinks they should be exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the world thinks they should be exterminated.
ROFL. They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
the world thinks they should be exterminated.
ROFL. They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
Steve_Harris wrote:
They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
horseshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?
Well, let me tell it like this. Assuming a Terrorist group has a nuclear weapon and lets assume its of an Islamic persuasion, Sunni, Shi'ite or otherwise. They'll never launch it against Jerusalem because is contains two of the Holiest sites in Islam along with dozens of other Religious sites (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). The same goes for Israel, if they do it, they'll be hurting their people as well, their nukes are as good as non-existent, unless you're telling me that they would justify a massacre of the Israeli people as well? You're also telling me that the world would stand aside quietly if a nuclear weapon was used? Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer