This is defense? [modified]
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EliottA wrote:
What is left other then to show force and strength and get them out ourselves
Have you considered lifting the sea blockade, allowing in medicine, removing the wall, not building settlements in what you know damn well are contentious areas, basically trying to live together like neighbours.
EliottA wrote:
How about trying to make peace, you know by giving up land, i.e. Gaza.
How about how much land the Palestinians gave up to create the modern state of Israel? I'm surprised you don't treat them with more gratitude.
Steve_Harris wrote:
removing the wall
why in the fuck would you do that? read the news. before the wall Israeli citizens were being blown up daily by homicide bombers.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Near a thousand and the numbers are climbing quite rapidly and they'll climb even more after the injured die from wounds that could have been cured because of the lack of humanitarian aid that does not exist on the ground because of tactics such as shelling ambulances, hospitals and forcing ships carrying aid to return and in international waters no less.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Near a thousand
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza. Should I assume therefore that there are no Hamas in the Strip? Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals. And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Because they have them, and the surveillance technology to make them effective, and also because they care what the world thinks. I don't think that the people running Israel do.
Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do.
of course not, the world thinks they should be exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I can't wait until they start being tried by the international courts for War Crimes
Don't you think that Hamas should be tried first?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Certainly the both of them. I'm not at any time saying that Hamas are being saints.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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That's what I'm trying to point out, but many seem to think that some civilian deaths are acceptable. The reality is that it is sadly unavoidable. But this outrageous use of force makes any so called attempts a farce. Jon, for all the respect I have for him, seems to miss construe my words as support for Hamas which is as far from the truth as this "defense" being a defense strategy.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
The facts are these: Israel gave up land for PEACE! So Hamas takes over as the rulers of Gaza. The people (those now being killed along with Hamas) let them be the rulers. Hamas sends rockets into Israel (killing innocent people there as well). Israel determines that enough is enough and is (probably) determined to exterminate everything and everyone that has anything to do with Hamas. Those being "massacred" are the ones who allowed the seeds of this violence to grow. There is an old saying --- "You reap what you sow". The harvest is now occurring. From my perspective, the Israelis should wipe out everything and anything that has Hamas connected to it. If I were the Israeli leaders, I would also take back every square inch of Gaza that they gave up to promote "peace". Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE???? War is hell, and bombs and rockets have no conscience. They kill if you are close to them when they go off. So if you don't want to be killed as an "innocent", then get the hell away from where Hamas is firing their damn rockets! Doesn't take a degree to figure that out! Even the stupid UN forces realized this when they allowed Hamas to fire rockets from within the UN compound! But we all know the UN forces are worthless and impotent to do anything but stand by and watch.
AF Pilot
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Steve_Harris wrote:
removing the wall
why in the fuck would you do that? read the news. before the wall Israeli citizens were being blown up daily by homicide bombers.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
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Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do.
of course not, the world thinks they should be exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the world thinks they should be exterminated.
ROFL. They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
the world thinks they should be exterminated.
ROFL. They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
Steve_Harris wrote:
They just want them to behave in a civilised manner and to respond in a measured manner when provoked.
horseshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?
Well, let me tell it like this. Assuming a Terrorist group has a nuclear weapon and lets assume its of an Islamic persuasion, Sunni, Shi'ite or otherwise. They'll never launch it against Jerusalem because is contains two of the Holiest sites in Islam along with dozens of other Religious sites (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). The same goes for Israel, if they do it, they'll be hurting their people as well, their nukes are as good as non-existent, unless you're telling me that they would justify a massacre of the Israeli people as well? You're also telling me that the world would stand aside quietly if a nuclear weapon was used? Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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How would Israel respond if another country tried to change its government by force? How would you respond if China (for example) tried to change the government of the US by force? If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected. The whole of the Middle East needs to learn to live together in peace through peace, not to live together in peace through war.
Your thoughts on this war are simply naive. Israel has given land for "peace" (you know, the Gaza strip). Yet it becomes a launching base for rocket attacks to fall on Israeli civilians. There were no targeted military objectives by Hamas. As a kid, I think the bullies beat the crap out of you, simply because you wouldn't stand up to them. The Israelis don't take bullying from anyone --- not anymore. By the way, if this was the 60's, would you be out there chanting "Better red than dead"? My gut tells me you would.
AF Pilot
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Oakman wrote:
OK, then why do you assume that any of us care enough to read what you think?
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
Oakman wrote:
War is fought to be won. It's not fought to be fair, or pretty, or with one hand tied behind you.
True, but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Oakman wrote:
diplomatic goals
Whatever the goals are must agree with the concept of fair play. Both parties have their own diplomatic reasons for doing what they are doing yet only one side has the ear of the POTUS, but with one week left, a new POTUS will exist and may have both ears open for the task of hearing, assuming his election pledges stand true.
Oakman wrote:
Hamas
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples. Alas, it appears to be an unfortunate decision by the people that may be hard to overturn what with Hamas being thugs in all but name.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
I agree, I just wanted Mustafa to realise that he did care, regardless of his vehement statement.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option??? (minimum force, and higher risk for your troops are two ways of saying the same thing.)
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples
I've been saying that right along. Mustafa keeps telling me that they wouldn't win a free election these days. I keep looking at all the Palestinians on the West Bank (and apparently in Lebanon, according to Hezbullah) cheering Hamas on - and I think he's wrong.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The facts are these: Israel gave up land for PEACE! So Hamas takes over as the rulers of Gaza. The people (those now being killed along with Hamas) let them be the rulers. Hamas sends rockets into Israel (killing innocent people there as well). Israel determines that enough is enough and is (probably) determined to exterminate everything and everyone that has anything to do with Hamas. Those being "massacred" are the ones who allowed the seeds of this violence to grow. There is an old saying --- "You reap what you sow". The harvest is now occurring. From my perspective, the Israelis should wipe out everything and anything that has Hamas connected to it. If I were the Israeli leaders, I would also take back every square inch of Gaza that they gave up to promote "peace". Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE???? War is hell, and bombs and rockets have no conscience. They kill if you are close to them when they go off. So if you don't want to be killed as an "innocent", then get the hell away from where Hamas is firing their damn rockets! Doesn't take a degree to figure that out! Even the stupid UN forces realized this when they allowed Hamas to fire rockets from within the UN compound! But we all know the UN forces are worthless and impotent to do anything but stand by and watch.
AF Pilot
Reagan Conservative wrote:
Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE????
Those in Gaza doing this are leaders and active followers of Hamas and they are the thugs responsible as they are the ones with the policy that Israel must be wiped from the face of this earth. Ordinary people want and need a peaceful existence irrespective where they live. But when you see your close friends and relatives being harmed in the way they are, you are likely to store troubles for some future time. Ordinary peoples may indeed take a "resistance" style of approach, not necessarily that dissimilar from the resistances shown by ordinary French men and women when under WWII Nazi occupation.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
You can ask Jon, him and I have argued and debated the issue dozens of times and he'll vouch for that fact.
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Using white-phosphorus bombs, weapons that are banned
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I fail to see that their tactics are any different
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
ages 16 and below
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
When you factor in the women
Same as above.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
No, under no circumstances can you justify such action
So all Hamas has to do to operate with impunity is to convince 50 civilians to stand next to each rocket site or mortar? Israel then can have no choice but to take swimming lessons? You have got to be real. Human shields are a despicable weapon, but it is not the other side's fault when they get hurt. When the U.S. used bombs in Bosnia to help free the indigenous Muslim population, the other side used human shields. Should the NATO forces in that case have simply given up and gone home leaving Milosevic in total control? How many Muslim would have been alive and free two years later if they had?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Good, I've known you to be an honorable man and you keep reaffirming it.
Oakman wrote:
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Shame on the US for using it. Also, I'm not claiming this, the UN are and I'd take their word for the moment because they are being attacked with it over there and I'd expect that they have people more experienced than I am with weapons of war and can tell when a banned weapon is being used.
Oakman wrote:
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
According to several news agencies, they stopped doing that after the 5th day. Not only that, but there was the incident when they told about 100 civilians to hide in a particular building that was then shelled with impunity by the same band that told them to hide there killing dozens. Also, the first time they bombed the UN/UNRWA HQ in Gaza, the UN was quick in giving the IDF their coordinates with assurances from the IDF that that location will be as safe as a sanctuary. So when about 700 civilians (out of a fleeing 500,000) are hiding in the building, they get shelled again. Sorry, does not compute, if anything, the tactics are even worse.
Oakman wrote:
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon. When a woman's child dies in her arm because she has no food to feed him because humanitarian aid is not coming through either because Israel is blocking it or destroying the vehicles transporting it, that's equivalent to being killed outright by a weapon. The trauma caused to so many thousands of children, how can that be justified?
Oakman wrote:
So all Hamas has to do to operate
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Steve_Harris wrote:
they care what the world thinks.
The day after China lobbed missles into the U.S. WWIII will have started. It may be a limited war, at least at first, but no President could afford to allow that to happen, and no Chinese Premier, having taken the first step would ever back down short of being militarily defeated.
Steve_Harris wrote:
I don't think that the people running Israel do
You may be right. They certainly have seen what world opinion has done to stop attacks against them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Just a thought exercise, but China's only hope for a 'limited' war would be to attack US bases in the ROK or Japan me thinks. I'd bet missiles inbound to the US would result in launch on warn. Which is why they'd never launch missles at the US mainland, it's suicide. Most of the world governs itself nicely this way, unfortunately Hamas view survival of the few at the cost of the many as sufficient.
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
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Well, let me tell it like this. Assuming a Terrorist group has a nuclear weapon and lets assume its of an Islamic persuasion, Sunni, Shi'ite or otherwise. They'll never launch it against Jerusalem because is contains two of the Holiest sites in Islam along with dozens of other Religious sites (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). The same goes for Israel, if they do it, they'll be hurting their people as well, their nukes are as good as non-existent, unless you're telling me that they would justify a massacre of the Israeli people as well? You're also telling me that the world would stand aside quietly if a nuclear weapon was used? Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
Are you saying that the number couldn't have been much higher, without the use of nukes, had Israel wished it to be?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Near a thousand
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza. Should I assume therefore that there are no Hamas in the Strip? Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals. And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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The facts are these: Israel gave up land for PEACE! So Hamas takes over as the rulers of Gaza. The people (those now being killed along with Hamas) let them be the rulers. Hamas sends rockets into Israel (killing innocent people there as well). Israel determines that enough is enough and is (probably) determined to exterminate everything and everyone that has anything to do with Hamas. Those being "massacred" are the ones who allowed the seeds of this violence to grow. There is an old saying --- "You reap what you sow". The harvest is now occurring. From my perspective, the Israelis should wipe out everything and anything that has Hamas connected to it. If I were the Israeli leaders, I would also take back every square inch of Gaza that they gave up to promote "peace". Don't you think it OBVIOUS that those in Gaza DO NOT WANT PEACE???? War is hell, and bombs and rockets have no conscience. They kill if you are close to them when they go off. So if you don't want to be killed as an "innocent", then get the hell away from where Hamas is firing their damn rockets! Doesn't take a degree to figure that out! Even the stupid UN forces realized this when they allowed Hamas to fire rockets from within the UN compound! But we all know the UN forces are worthless and impotent to do anything but stand by and watch.
AF Pilot
You really don't have a clue as to what the hell is going on there do you? Are you Stan in disguise by any chance?
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
Israel has denied the use of White Phospherous
that is immaterial, white phospherous is not banned.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
It is banned whenever there is a civilian population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Arms_control_status_and_military_regulations[^] Under the Geneva Conventions, which are the statutory implementation of the customary laws of war, it is forbidden to deliberately attack civilians or bona-fide civilian structures, dwellings, and places used for civilian purposes, such as hospitals, religious structures, and schools. It therefore follows that the use of any form of weapon to deliberately attack civilians or deliberately attack unquestionably civilian targets unoccupied by military forces is a war crime, and in violation of the laws of war. Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as 'any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target'. The same protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilians (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions) or in civilian areas. This protocol is only binding upon those who have signed it; the United States, along with the other major military powers, has not signed or agreed to Protocol III and is not bound by it.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Opinion (irrespective if you agree/disagree/etc) is important, otherwise, what is the purpose of the Soapbox?
I agree, I just wanted Mustafa to realise that he did care, regardless of his vehement statement.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
but minimum force must be the preferred option.
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option??? (minimum force, and higher risk for your troops are two ways of saying the same thing.)
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Like it or not, they were elected by the Palestinian peoples
I've been saying that right along. Mustafa keeps telling me that they wouldn't win a free election these days. I keep looking at all the Palestinians on the West Bank (and apparently in Lebanon, according to Hezbullah) cheering Hamas on - and I think he's wrong.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option???
That was not what I meant, or said. Taking whatever cautions are necessary, the use of force must be sufficient yet measured. If there is an excess quantity of force used, that causing unnecessary civilian casualties or causing civilian infrastructure to break-down in a wholesale danger-to-life manner, then the force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive thus the enforcer of this force must respond in a positive way to restrict or even stop such actions
Oakman wrote:
Palestinians on the West Bank
They are looking at their brethren and wondering what to do. Fatah are not allowing them to gather to voice solidarity otherwise the problems that Israel has will expand.
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Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer