This is defense? [modified]
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Well, let me tell it like this. Assuming a Terrorist group has a nuclear weapon and lets assume its of an Islamic persuasion, Sunni, Shi'ite or otherwise. They'll never launch it against Jerusalem because is contains two of the Holiest sites in Islam along with dozens of other Religious sites (Muslim, Christian and Jewish). The same goes for Israel, if they do it, they'll be hurting their people as well, their nukes are as good as non-existent, unless you're telling me that they would justify a massacre of the Israeli people as well? You're also telling me that the world would stand aside quietly if a nuclear weapon was used? Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Furthermore, what is actually happening is not restraint. I wouldn't call the death of such a high number of civilians restraint.
This same, tired old argument is, well, tired. There will never be an accaptable number of casualties but this is war: right or wrong people get killed: that is the nature of the beats and, as in most wars, one side is militarily superior. Fortunately it is Israel who will do their utmost to refrain from killing for no reason. The same would not be said for the terrosist scum that is Hamas. Perhaps if the Palestinian people had stayed with Fatah rather than allowing Hamas this would not now be ahppening. As they say, you make your bed...
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Oakman wrote:
That's the total number of casualties suffered by the Palestinians in Gaza.
That's why I said near.
Oakman wrote:
Or that the Israelis are so enamored of killing civilians that they pass up military target in order to hit schools and hospitals.
It starting to seem like it.
Oakman wrote:
And of course, we all know that Hamas never uses a school or a hospital or a mosque as a launching area, don't we?
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City. Ironically, the hospital had been totally rebuilt bu Israel during the occupation. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2fd_1231732332[^] Hamas firing from school (video)[^] Mortars fired from UN school (video)[^] The Associated Press cited eyewitness accounts (not Israeli) that mobile mortars had been set up near the UN school that Israel bombed, and that they ran away immediately after launch. As to mosques, there have been very few protests of the bombing of mosques (there have been 5) this time around because the Islamists know they have been found out. They have used so many Mosques in so many countries, so many times, as military bases that it has become quite apparent that many, too many, houses of worship are also houses of death and destruction. Interestingly, about a week ago, the IAF struck the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque in northern Gaza's Beit Lahiya. Now, who, I wonder, was Ibrahim al-Maqadma - any ideas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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EliottA wrote:
Let's really not compare the dirty actions of these 2 peoples, you'll find they don't stack up in your favor.
If you count incidents, your right, but if you count by sheer "value" you'd be dead wrong. I could start with this and keep on going http://alcor.concordia.ca/~pal/History/Villages/drya@vil.html[^] Israel talks about Shalit (spelling?) what about the thousands of Palestinians in Israeli jails? Numbers talk in the vicinity of 11,000 with a sizable component being women.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Oakman wrote:
Getting your own soldiers killed is the preferred option???
That was not what I meant, or said. Taking whatever cautions are necessary, the use of force must be sufficient yet measured. If there is an excess quantity of force used, that causing unnecessary civilian casualties or causing civilian infrastructure to break-down in a wholesale danger-to-life manner, then the force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive thus the enforcer of this force must respond in a positive way to restrict or even stop such actions
Oakman wrote:
Palestinians on the West Bank
They are looking at their brethren and wondering what to do. Fatah are not allowing them to gather to voice solidarity otherwise the problems that Israel has will expand.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That was not what I meant, or said
But the two things are the same. This is something Russia demonstrated that it knew when it invaded Georgia. Overwhelming force is the best way of avoid casualties on your own side. Yes, people may piss and moan - I remember doing some myself. But you soldiers survive and if you put them in harms way, you owe it to them to do everything in your power to make sure that they can make sure that it's the other poor sonsabitches who die for their country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
force used becomes unjust, uncivilized, and excessive
War is uncivilized. Period. Death is unjust. Period. Any destruction is excessive. Period. Something I don't think that the Islamofascists get is that you better not deal in war unless you expect to face uncivilized, unjust, and as excessive-as-possible soldiers, bent on killing you as fast and efficiently as possible. One of the reasons they haven't figured it out is that they keep thinking that 'world opinion' protects them and, maybe they are not wrong. So many, many people says, "Well I don't think Hamas is in the right, but. . ." And after the but comes something that says that Israel needs to be willing to let more of its people die.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Steve_Harris wrote:
Having the wall there has certainly fostered a spirit of peace and conciliation between the two sides, hasn't it?
if you expect peace and reconciliation, please pass the dope. the wall saved lives, who gives a fuck about anything else?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
On which side? What would you call the Palestinian farmers (a majority I can assure you) who have had their livelihood taken away because of this monstrosity? They're dying now because they can't grow food or make enough money to buy it. Transport routes are non-existent so trade is non-existent as well. This applies to Muslims and Christians alike. But Mike, from the way you told it, its OK for the Israelis to live in peace and prosperity and security but its not a thing for the Palestinians.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Not without a serious death toll on their side as well.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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You twat: the Israelis use US weaponry! Besides the whole 'lets not hurt the civilians' mantra is fine when the civilians are not living on and around the site of the launchers but complete bollocks in real life. I, for one, fully back what Israel is doing and hope they finish what they started and I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
digital man wrote:
I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
That's fine, and I wouldn't downvote you for speaking your mind.
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BTW, how are YOu so sure YOU know what is really going on in Gaza. If you beleive every newsfeed that comes out of Gaza, I have some very nice land in Okeefenokee Swamp to sell you! Unless you've seen it for yourself, don't tell the rest of us what is going on in Gaza!
AF Pilot
Simple, I've been there, I know what its like, I know the conditions they live in, I know the conditions that the Israeli Army forced on them, and my neighbors have family there and I've got very reliable friends there. Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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On which side? What would you call the Palestinian farmers (a majority I can assure you) who have had their livelihood taken away because of this monstrosity? They're dying now because they can't grow food or make enough money to buy it. Transport routes are non-existent so trade is non-existent as well. This applies to Muslims and Christians alike. But Mike, from the way you told it, its OK for the Israelis to live in peace and prosperity and security but its not a thing for the Palestinians.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
But Mike, from the way you told it, its OK for the Israelis to live in peace and prosperity and security but its not a thing for the Palestinians.
I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion but I'm all for everyone living in peace, but and it is a big but, if a people are being attacked they have every right to do whatever it takes to stop it. Again, how long should Israel have just sit there watching rockets being lobbed into their country? If we're being honest, we both know that if Israel continued to take it, the rockets would have continues to increase in effectiveness and in strength. Hamas is obviously an Iranian proxy and Hamas' charter call for the death of Jews and Iran calls for their destruction. Pretend you're an Israeli, what would you want done?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Umm yeah, except that is written by a person, not endorsed by the University. Furthermore, the amount of deaths in comparison of Jew to Arab derived from War is incomparable.
EliottA wrote:
Furthermore, the amount of deaths in comparison of Jew to Arab derived from War is incomparable.
Correct, Palestinians have been massacred over and over again.
EliottA wrote:
Umm yeah, except that is written by a person, not endorsed by the University.
What is this? Are you drinking man? That's the second post you make that's completely unrelated.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
modified on Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:18 PM
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digital man wrote:
I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
That's fine, and I wouldn't downvote you for speaking your mind.
Ta: nor me you or anyone, for that matter. Well, except certain poeple who shall not be named for fear that will encourage them to speak.
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EliottA wrote:
Furthermore, the amount of deaths in comparison of Jew to Arab derived from War is incomparable.
Correct, Palestinians have been massacred over and over again.
EliottA wrote:
Umm yeah, except that is written by a person, not endorsed by the University.
What is this? Are you drinking man? That's the second post you make that's completely unrelated.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
modified on Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:18 PM
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Nope, Steve has the right of it.
well, no he doesn't. the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers, but bitched loudly when the wall was constructed to stop the homicide bombers. the rest of the world was silent when rockets were continually lobbed into Israel from Gaza, but now bitch when Israel tries to put a stop to it. yes there are people caught in the middle but if I lived in Israel I would my government to continue until Hamas was completely and totally exterminated.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers,
My turn to say "horseshit", Mike. Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
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Simple, I've been there, I know what its like, I know the conditions they live in, I know the conditions that the Israeli Army forced on them, and my neighbors have family there and I've got very reliable friends there. Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Every news feed I read I check with at least 2 others, if they all concur, I use it. What do you use other than rightist propaganda?
Then I must assume (as you assumed), that you must use leftist propaganda? All I know is that the world news has so many pictures plastered on the news of "innocent" civilians being killed, especially women and children, that I wonder why there are no pictures of killed and maimed Israeli civilians being plastered all over? Has that not piqued your interest, or do you believe everything the media throws your way? Does "balanced reporting ever cross your mind." And the fact that you've "been there" doesn't mean squat for the PRESENT SITUATION! I've been to a lot of places too, and that would not make me an expert on what was happening there if war broke out!
AF Pilot
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How would Israel respond if another country tried to change its government by force? How would you respond if China (for example) tried to change the government of the US by force? If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected. The whole of the Middle East needs to learn to live together in peace through peace, not to live together in peace through war.
Steve_Harris wrote:
If Israel was a peaceful and accommodating neighbour wasn't Jewish I doubt that rockets would be fired at them, nor that Hamas would have been elected.
I fixed that for you.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Hospitals no and I seriously doubt the number of reported mosques being used as launch sites. Certainly not schools and evidence of that was the apology for the mistake committed by the IDF 3 days after the school and all the civilians in it were decimated.
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City. Ironically, the hospital had been totally rebuilt bu Israel during the occupation. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2fd_1231732332[^] Hamas firing from school (video)[^] Mortars fired from UN school (video)[^] The Associated Press cited eyewitness accounts (not Israeli) that mobile mortars had been set up near the UN school that Israel bombed, and that they ran away immediately after launch. As to mosques, there have been very few protests of the bombing of mosques (there have been 5) this time around because the Islamists know they have been found out. They have used so many Mosques in so many countries, so many times, as military bases that it has become quite apparent that many, too many, houses of worship are also houses of death and destruction. Interestingly, about a week ago, the IAF struck the Ibrahim al-Maqadma mosque in northern Gaza's Beit Lahiya. Now, who, I wonder, was Ibrahim al-Maqadma - any ideas?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements
Its not being used as a launch site. But it seems that its OK to bomb it and everyone there to get a couple of assholes and in the process get a few hundred civilians or aid workers. Very Machiavellian.
Oakman wrote:
they ran away immediately after launch
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away. What's the point of destroying the school if its no longer being used as a launch site other than as a lesson which smacks very much of terrorism. Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
the entire world exhibited their opinion quite succinctly when refusing to condem homicide bombers,
My turn to say "horseshit", Mike. Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
Steve_Harris wrote:
Some countries which are always anti-Israeli may have refused to do so but to say the "entire world" refused to condemn them is nonsense.
name one.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
I do, indeed. And on the whole I have been glad of our argument. I have never learned anything from a man who agreed with me absolutely.
Good, I've known you to be an honorable man and you keep reaffirming it.
Oakman wrote:
No they aren't. Though armies normally exercise reasonable care in how they are used. The U.S. last used white phosphorous in its attack on Falujah in 2004.
Shame on the US for using it. Also, I'm not claiming this, the UN are and I'd take their word for the moment because they are being attacked with it over there and I'd expect that they have people more experienced than I am with weapons of war and can tell when a banned weapon is being used.
Oakman wrote:
When was the last time Hamas dropped leaflets warning civilians to leave the area because an attack is about to start? When was the last time Hamas dropped flashbangs before dropping real bombs in an attempt to clear civilians out of the target area?
According to several news agencies, they stopped doing that after the 5th day. Not only that, but there was the incident when they told about 100 civilians to hide in a particular building that was then shelled with impunity by the same band that told them to hide there killing dozens. Also, the first time they bombed the UN/UNRWA HQ in Gaza, the UN was quick in giving the IDF their coordinates with assurances from the IDF that that location will be as safe as a sanctuary. So when about 700 civilians (out of a fleeing 500,000) are hiding in the building, they get shelled again. Sorry, does not compute, if anything, the tactics are even worse.
Oakman wrote:
When a 16 year old throws a grenade at you, you'll be just as dead as if he was 35. Ditto a 10 year old.
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon. When a woman's child dies in her arm because she has no food to feed him because humanitarian aid is not coming through either because Israel is blocking it or destroying the vehicles transporting it, that's equivalent to being killed outright by a weapon. The trauma caused to so many thousands of children, how can that be justified?
Oakman wrote:
So all Hamas has to do to operate
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Shame on the US for using it.
American soldiers stayed alive because it was used. Not using it would have been stupid and dishonorable. One of the things I think that no-one who hasn't been in combat (among which we can number Stan and Ilion and Adnan) is that all weapons are inhumane. Whether you are firing a bolt-action carbine or dropping a bunker-buster from 20,000 feet, the idea is to take human life as quickly and easily as possible. And once the other guy is dead, it doesn't matter to him whether he died from a bayonet in the throat or Grad artillery rocket fired from 20 km away. People who dance around labeling this weapon OK and this one sometimes OK, and this one unacceptable, prove, imho, one thing - they have never been under fire.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon.
I'll apologise for saying that -- as soon as you link to where I did. Of course, kids die in War. It is a terrible price that is paid by the true civilians in Israel or Gaza, or Iraq, or Bosnia, or Georgia (and maybe soon, the Ukraine.) I have seen dead babies killed by the Viet Cong and I have seen dead babies killed by US forces (and maybe by me.) I still - 50 years later - have nightmares about what I saw. If I could wave my magic wand and stop all killing of innocents, do you think I would hesitate?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
completely equivalent to Hamas' tactics.
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt. They have made it quite clear to the Egyptians who are trying to broker the cease fire (you said they'd never accept an Egyptian peace plan, as I remember) that this is the price Gaza must pay for peace. All Hamas has to do is agree and the war stops. All Israel needs to know is that they will not be allowed to start up again, and Hamas can do whatever it wants within its own borders. You suggest that won't be very pretty, but Israel won't care. If Hamas needs to be disciplined, replaced, or wiped out, let their Arab brethren do it - right now, of course, Jordan, the West Bank Palestinians, and Egypt are delighted that Israel has do
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I believe you are right. The first person to order nuclear weapons used in the middle east will be a Muslim terrorist. The next person to do so will be the Prime Minister of Israel and he's got somewhere between 200 and 400 available. To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
To tell the truth, I am not sure that the above scenario is avoidable.
Depends on how Obama deals with Iran. But I too think it's just a matter of time until some jihadi somewhere gets their hands on a wad of uranium. It's a scarey world these days. Ya know, when I was a kid, I thought about the old Chinese proverb "may you live in interesting times" and I thought "man, I wish I did". Now that I most certainly do, I miss the good ol' boring days. Then again, the good ol' boring days were probably only that way because I didn't see what was happening in the world.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Oakman wrote:
Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in the basements
Its not being used as a launch site. But it seems that its OK to bomb it and everyone there to get a couple of assholes and in the process get a few hundred civilians or aid workers. Very Machiavellian.
Oakman wrote:
they ran away immediately after launch
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away. What's the point of destroying the school if its no longer being used as a launch site other than as a lesson which smacks very much of terrorism. Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Its not being used as a launch site
The first thing you do, the very first, is eliminate command and control. Thats why Hamas HQ is hidden under a hospital, and it is why every patient in that hospital is in danger.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Again, they destroyed the school why? They ran away
The bomb run was long over before the AP report was made. AP investigated only because Hamas made such a big deal out of the lack of provocation.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Ibrahim Al-Muqadima (preferred spelling btw) was a Hamas Operative. Not some holy man.
And yet they named a mosque after him. You think that maybe, just maybe, there were weapons inside that holy place?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface