This is defense? [modified]
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I'm not against what they're doing to Hamas, its the civilians I'm arguing for.
I would much rather that not one person has to die but, in the real world of war that just ain't going to happen and there is no technology available that allows them to return fire and only kill the enemy: anyone else kept close by will suffer as well. In any case, Hamas brought this on themselves: no one made them lob rockets into Israel over the last 8 years and I don't recall anyone here starting a thread moaning about how many innocent Israelis got killed. As I've said before it may be that only 20% of those killed in Gaza where innocent but it is 100% of those being killed in Israel. How about starting a debate on that?
digital man wrote:
I would much rather that not one person has to die
Good, we're on agreement on that point.
digital man wrote:
in the real world of war that just ain't going to happen
Sadly, that's true.
digital man wrote:
there is no technology available that allows them to return fire and only kill the enemy: anyone else kept close by will suffer as well
Yes, but collateral damage can be minimized through precision weaponry, laser guided bombs, commando units, smart bombs that land on painted targets and so on. I'm back to the argument of using a half-ton bomb to wipe out a house will unnecessarily wipe out the neighborhood its in as well.
digital man wrote:
In any case, Hamas brought this on themselves
They deserve what they're getting. Its the people I feel for.
digital man wrote:
As I've said before it may be that only 20% of those killed in Gaza where innocent
See, official reports are saying that of the 1000 (or so) dead, nearly a 1/3 are children. How are these children being placed on the terrorist list?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
This is a sound message from Israel to the Palestinian people, "You own Gaza. it is yours. You choose your own government and which political parties you support. if you support Hamas while they launch rockets, then it is the same as if you launched them yourselves. If they hit us, we will now hit you"
And the UN. Israel knows the GPS coordinate of all UN buildings for months. UN buildings are clearly indicated as such. How targeting them can help in defending Israel from Hamas attacks?
Society is composed of two great classes, those that have more dinners than appetite, and those who have more appetite than dinners Fold with us! ¤ flickr
Twice. The second time with foreknowledge that there were 100s of civilians hiding out there because it was thought to be safe.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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digital man wrote:
I, for one, fully back what Israel is doing and hope they finish what they started
See, that's the pivotal point of argument between you and me. I'm not against what they're doing to Hamas, its the civilians I'm arguing for.
digital man wrote:
I don't give a toss if anyone downvotes me: it won't chnage what I think.
And neither should you, stick to your guns unless you are convinced otherwise. I don't vote.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
its the civilians I'm arguing for.
So why aren't you railing against Egypt for bottling up the civilians? Why is it perfectly acceptable to you for an Arab country to refuse asylum to other Arabs? Hell, the Gaza strip used to be Egypt's problem, didn't it? And before you tell me "it's not acceptable, but" - imagine you are talking to a Palestinian standing at the southern border with his family, knowing that an evil regime has taken over your country and forced a war with its neighbor. Tell him why it's okay.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Actually, what you just described was something the Israelis had done to a Palestinian boy[^] a few years ago (2004).
That was cowardly, but forcing a kid to sit on top of a jeep so the rest of his gang would stop throwing rocks isn't the equivalent of being "skinned alive and have his throat slit, then his body would be dragged around." Things not equal to the same thing are not equal to each other - even if the victim is an Arab.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
claim to be the only peaceful, democratic nation
Well, Lebanon isn't giving them any competition any more, is it? Tell me again why it is important for Lebanon to keep all its Palestinian refugees penned up behind barbed wire.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
claim to be the only peaceful, democratic nation
Well, Lebanon isn't giving them any competition any more, is it? Tell me again why it is important for Lebanon to keep all its Palestinian refugees penned up behind barbed wire.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
They're not, they're living in tents though because Lebanon can't afford to absorb them and isn't allowed to send them back across the border. Most of them want to go back home, but obviously aren't allowed to return. The right of return is the #1 reason for all the conflict.
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Oakman wrote:
American soldiers stayed alive because it was used.
That does not justify that either.
Oakman wrote:
Not using it would have been stupid and dishonorable.
That's your opinion, I say not using it would have been a bit more humane. In the end, I'm of the persuasion that war in its entirety cannot be thought of as humane, but I dying instantly is infinitely better than dying by being burned alive. You should know that because if IIRC you fought in Vietam correct? You'd know about Napalm and death and war. I'm not being sarcastic.
Oakman wrote:
I'll apologise for saying that -- as soon as you link to where I did.
That was the implication I understood, my apologies.
Oakman wrote:
If I could wave my magic wand and stop all killing of innocents, do you think I would hesitate?
I doubt you would and probably just wave the damned thing again and again for good measure but it still doesn't justify what's happening in the amount of force being used.
Oakman wrote:
All Hamas has to do is agree and the war stops. All Israel needs to know is that they will not be allowed to start up again, and Hamas can do whatever it wants within its own borders. You suggest that won't be very pretty, but Israel won't care. If Hamas needs to be disciplined, replaced, or wiped out, let their Arab brethren do it - right now, of course, Jordan, the West Bank Palestinians, and Egypt are delighted that Israel has done what it has done.
And Hamas wants the blockade from all sides lifted. Before the Israeli incursion that killed 6 militants, Hamas was actually offering Israel a truce with years ranging from 20-50 years. Draw your own conclusions. The governments are certainly neutral, leaning towards happy, the people are furious. It won't go easy on the governments a bit later on. I fear from tomorrow.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
And Hamas wants the blockade from all sides lifted.
I'm sure they do, and I agree with you that as a goal, that would be great. However, asking Israel to lower its guard, under the circumstances, would appear to be more of a delaying tactic than a reasonable demand.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I fear from tomorrow
I do, too. If the Arab countries had any sense, they would go after Iran which is, as you point out, not arabic at all - not even semitic as the Jews and Arabs are, before it becomes the dog that treats them all as tails. Once that happens, their only use to Iran would be as regions filled with human shields.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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It is banned whenever there is a civilian population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Arms_control_status_and_military_regulations[^] Under the Geneva Conventions, which are the statutory implementation of the customary laws of war, it is forbidden to deliberately attack civilians or bona-fide civilian structures, dwellings, and places used for civilian purposes, such as hospitals, religious structures, and schools. It therefore follows that the use of any form of weapon to deliberately attack civilians or deliberately attack unquestionably civilian targets unoccupied by military forces is a war crime, and in violation of the laws of war. Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as 'any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target'. The same protocol also prohibits the use of incendiary weapons against civilians (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions) or in civilian areas. This protocol is only binding upon those who have signed it; the United States, along with the other major military powers, has not signed or agreed to Protocol III and is not bound by it.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Actually he was misquoting Mao Zedong who said, "the only real defense is active defense." Similar thoughts were offered up by Machiavelli and Sun Tzu, but I doubt Mel ever heard of either of them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
One has been witnessed, the other has not.
I am afraid you are wrong[^]
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
This was Israeli policemen who are meant to uphold the law.
I already said it was cowardly. But a barbarian is a barbarian whether he is Jew or Muslim, settler or cop.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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EliottA wrote:
No where near to the amount of Jews? Unless you're like Mel Gibson and just forgot to count the numbers of WW2.
And that is related to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict how?
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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They're not, they're living in tents though because Lebanon can't afford to absorb them and isn't allowed to send them back across the border. Most of them want to go back home, but obviously aren't allowed to return. The right of return is the #1 reason for all the conflict.
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
Wow. So define for me exactly how many Jews have to die before Israel can protect herself? Hundreds aren't enough aparently. Is it 1000? Do we have to wait for that? Is it 10,000? Should we mark our calendars, estimating the average kill rate from Hamas rockets? If my country were under attack, I would respond with sufficient force to be certain that never happened again. What would you wait for?
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
One has been witnessed, the other has not.
I am afraid you are wrong[^]
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
This was Israeli policemen who are meant to uphold the law.
I already said it was cowardly. But a barbarian is a barbarian whether he is Jew or Muslim, settler or cop.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I agree it's barbaric. But the one I showed you was about a child being abused. There are plenty of instances of children being shot or abused by the Israeli military. There are plenty of pictures to support that. Although I don't think torturing soldiers is justifiable. It's certainly no more painful than when white phosphorous or a missile has burned your skin or blown a limb away. War is hell, period, on both sides. But people don't seem to understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two of the most populous places in the world with the highest poverty and hunger rates. Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there. People keep saying why can't they be more human. If you don't treat them like humans, you get what you sow. The Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land. So unless they get eradicated, which no one in the world wants, the fight for who's land that is will continue forever.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Lebanon can't afford to absorb them and isn't allowed to send them back across the border.
And did you type that with a straight face?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The exact same thing, peace and prosperity for all, but I'd approach it with a completely different paradigm, one that has yielded excellent fruit in Jordan. I'd get the change from the inside. I'd show the advantage of prosperity and peace. Radicalism disappears double quick when that happens. And before you misunderstand me or for someone else to twist my words, I'm for the war against terror but completely against the way it was conducted.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
I don't disagree with you in general terms, but just based on what I see (news, 'net, newspapers) from here, Jordanians have a much different outlook than do Palestinians. It may be leadership in some final analysis. Palestinians have looked to terrorists like Arafat and now Hamas for leadership, and it isn't working.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Shame on the US for using it.
American soldiers stayed alive because it was used. Not using it would have been stupid and dishonorable. One of the things I think that no-one who hasn't been in combat (among which we can number Stan and Ilion and Adnan) is that all weapons are inhumane. Whether you are firing a bolt-action carbine or dropping a bunker-buster from 20,000 feet, the idea is to take human life as quickly and easily as possible. And once the other guy is dead, it doesn't matter to him whether he died from a bayonet in the throat or Grad artillery rocket fired from 20 km away. People who dance around labeling this weapon OK and this one sometimes OK, and this one unacceptable, prove, imho, one thing - they have never been under fire.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon.
I'll apologise for saying that -- as soon as you link to where I did. Of course, kids die in War. It is a terrible price that is paid by the true civilians in Israel or Gaza, or Iraq, or Bosnia, or Georgia (and maybe soon, the Ukraine.) I have seen dead babies killed by the Viet Cong and I have seen dead babies killed by US forces (and maybe by me.) I still - 50 years later - have nightmares about what I saw. If I could wave my magic wand and stop all killing of innocents, do you think I would hesitate?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
completely equivalent to Hamas' tactics.
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt. They have made it quite clear to the Egyptians who are trying to broker the cease fire (you said they'd never accept an Egyptian peace plan, as I remember) that this is the price Gaza must pay for peace. All Hamas has to do is agree and the war stops. All Israel needs to know is that they will not be allowed to start up again, and Hamas can do whatever it wants within its own borders. You suggest that won't be very pretty, but Israel won't care. If Hamas needs to be disciplined, replaced, or wiped out, let their Arab brethren do it - right now, of course, Jordan, the West Bank Palestinians, and Egypt are delighted that Israel has do
Oakman wrote:
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt.
And the Palestinians have only two conditions: the right of return and reimbursement. What do you think will happen once there's a cease-fire? Think it will last if one side keeps caging up the other? Think they'll open the cage and let them roam free and have more Palestinian babies? This is a no-win war because 60 years ago somebody messed up big. Oh well, at least things are great here (until the end of the month when my contract expires and I join the ranks of the unemployed).
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Actually he was misquoting Mao Zedong who said, "the only real defense is active defense." Similar thoughts were offered up by Machiavelli and Sun Tzu, but I doubt Mel ever heard of either of them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Actually he was misquoting Mao Zedong who said
Close. Napoléon Bonaparte,"The best defense is attack".
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Wow. So define for me exactly how many Jews have to die before Israel can protect herself? Hundreds aren't enough aparently. Is it 1000? Do we have to wait for that? Is it 10,000? Should we mark our calendars, estimating the average kill rate from Hamas rockets? If my country were under attack, I would respond with sufficient force to be certain that never happened again. What would you wait for?
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I agree it's barbaric. But the one I showed you was about a child being abused. There are plenty of instances of children being shot or abused by the Israeli military. There are plenty of pictures to support that. Although I don't think torturing soldiers is justifiable. It's certainly no more painful than when white phosphorous or a missile has burned your skin or blown a limb away. War is hell, period, on both sides. But people don't seem to understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two of the most populous places in the world with the highest poverty and hunger rates. Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there. People keep saying why can't they be more human. If you don't treat them like humans, you get what you sow. The Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land. So unless they get eradicated, which no one in the world wants, the fight for who's land that is will continue forever.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there.
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
he Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land.
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming