This is defense? [modified]
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The exact same thing, peace and prosperity for all, but I'd approach it with a completely different paradigm, one that has yielded excellent fruit in Jordan. I'd get the change from the inside. I'd show the advantage of prosperity and peace. Radicalism disappears double quick when that happens. And before you misunderstand me or for someone else to twist my words, I'm for the war against terror but completely against the way it was conducted.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
I don't disagree with you in general terms, but just based on what I see (news, 'net, newspapers) from here, Jordanians have a much different outlook than do Palestinians. It may be leadership in some final analysis. Palestinians have looked to terrorists like Arafat and now Hamas for leadership, and it isn't working.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Shame on the US for using it.
American soldiers stayed alive because it was used. Not using it would have been stupid and dishonorable. One of the things I think that no-one who hasn't been in combat (among which we can number Stan and Ilion and Adnan) is that all weapons are inhumane. Whether you are firing a bolt-action carbine or dropping a bunker-buster from 20,000 feet, the idea is to take human life as quickly and easily as possible. And once the other guy is dead, it doesn't matter to him whether he died from a bayonet in the throat or Grad artillery rocket fired from 20 km away. People who dance around labeling this weapon OK and this one sometimes OK, and this one unacceptable, prove, imho, one thing - they have never been under fire.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
If the children die in their homes because of an attack by the IAF, the kid is classified as a terrorist? Give me a break Jon.
I'll apologise for saying that -- as soon as you link to where I did. Of course, kids die in War. It is a terrible price that is paid by the true civilians in Israel or Gaza, or Iraq, or Bosnia, or Georgia (and maybe soon, the Ukraine.) I have seen dead babies killed by the Viet Cong and I have seen dead babies killed by US forces (and maybe by me.) I still - 50 years later - have nightmares about what I saw. If I could wave my magic wand and stop all killing of innocents, do you think I would hesitate?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
completely equivalent to Hamas' tactics.
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt. They have made it quite clear to the Egyptians who are trying to broker the cease fire (you said they'd never accept an Egyptian peace plan, as I remember) that this is the price Gaza must pay for peace. All Hamas has to do is agree and the war stops. All Israel needs to know is that they will not be allowed to start up again, and Hamas can do whatever it wants within its own borders. You suggest that won't be very pretty, but Israel won't care. If Hamas needs to be disciplined, replaced, or wiped out, let their Arab brethren do it - right now, of course, Jordan, the West Bank Palestinians, and Egypt are delighted that Israel has do
Oakman wrote:
Granting for the sake of the argument, that you are correct, please remember that Israel has two condition for ceasing to fire: no more rockets into Israeli territory and no resupply of Hamas via Egypt.
And the Palestinians have only two conditions: the right of return and reimbursement. What do you think will happen once there's a cease-fire? Think it will last if one side keeps caging up the other? Think they'll open the cage and let them roam free and have more Palestinian babies? This is a no-win war because 60 years ago somebody messed up big. Oh well, at least things are great here (until the end of the month when my contract expires and I join the ranks of the unemployed).
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Actually he was misquoting Mao Zedong who said, "the only real defense is active defense." Similar thoughts were offered up by Machiavelli and Sun Tzu, but I doubt Mel ever heard of either of them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Actually he was misquoting Mao Zedong who said
Close. Napoléon Bonaparte,"The best defense is attack".
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Wow. So define for me exactly how many Jews have to die before Israel can protect herself? Hundreds aren't enough aparently. Is it 1000? Do we have to wait for that? Is it 10,000? Should we mark our calendars, estimating the average kill rate from Hamas rockets? If my country were under attack, I would respond with sufficient force to be certain that never happened again. What would you wait for?
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I agree it's barbaric. But the one I showed you was about a child being abused. There are plenty of instances of children being shot or abused by the Israeli military. There are plenty of pictures to support that. Although I don't think torturing soldiers is justifiable. It's certainly no more painful than when white phosphorous or a missile has burned your skin or blown a limb away. War is hell, period, on both sides. But people don't seem to understand that the West Bank and Gaza are two of the most populous places in the world with the highest poverty and hunger rates. Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there. People keep saying why can't they be more human. If you don't treat them like humans, you get what you sow. The Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land. So unless they get eradicated, which no one in the world wants, the fight for who's land that is will continue forever.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there.
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
he Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land.
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
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Wow. So define for me exactly how many Jews have to die before Israel can protect herself? Hundreds aren't enough aparently. Is it 1000? Do we have to wait for that? Is it 10,000? Should we mark our calendars, estimating the average kill rate from Hamas rockets? If my country were under attack, I would respond with sufficient force to be certain that never happened again. What would you wait for?
"If you kill one of us we will kill 100 of ours". Do know how this strategy is called? Terrorism.
If you kill a whale, you get Greenpeace and Jacques Cousteau on your back, but wipe out sardines and you get a canning subsidy! Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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I don't disagree with you in general terms, but just based on what I see (news, 'net, newspapers) from here, Jordanians have a much different outlook than do Palestinians. It may be leadership in some final analysis. Palestinians have looked to terrorists like Arafat and now Hamas for leadership, and it isn't working.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
It is leadership. About 90% of the Jordanian population is not Jordanian per se. They're Palestinians. My father is an example. I don't count myself as either Palestinian or Jordanian but as an Arab but that's because I have a completely different ideology.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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No no, wait, we were discussing the death toll of Arab to Jew, as it pertains to conflicts between them, where the hell does WWII come into play? Also, its GB that really started the whole thing otherwise, Jews were more than happy to start their state in Uganda.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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No no, wait, we were discussing the death toll of Arab to Jew, as it pertains to conflicts between them, where the hell does WWII come into play? Also, its GB that really started the whole thing otherwise, Jews were more than happy to start their state in Uganda.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there.
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
he Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land.
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
EliottA wrote:
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Lebanon was also occupied for a few decades, we know what they're feeling.
EliottA wrote:
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
Hamas represents a small percentage of the Palestinians. If the people felt like there was no hope left, I'm sure the nine million plus of them will all come back home and force either the Israelis to blow the entire region up or come up with an amicable solution. Again, it's really a no-win situation. The sooner people start realizing that, the sooner they realize they need a workable option.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Their PR engine is #1 in the world.
Without a doubt. Its amazing really, I'm in complete awe of it.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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EliottA wrote:
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Lebanon was also occupied for a few decades, we know what they're feeling.
EliottA wrote:
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
Hamas represents a small percentage of the Palestinians. If the people felt like there was no hope left, I'm sure the nine million plus of them will all come back home and force either the Israelis to blow the entire region up or come up with an amicable solution. Again, it's really a no-win situation. The sooner people start realizing that, the sooner they realize they need a workable option.
Firstly, Im lebanese, so I know the history. Secondly, thats right Hamas is a small percentage, which is my point. Get the vast majority of Palestinians to take matters into their own hands and kick Hamas out. They can do it. By sitting and doing nothing, they are *supporting* Hamas. All the populous of a country pays for its governments' actions, which is what is happening now.
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Umm, yes we where, we wanted Israel, not Uganda. And it comes into play because WW2 *created* Israel as a result.
Check your history books dude.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Looks like I'm going to have to.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Check your history books dude.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
I don't really need to. Israel has been home to the Jews for, and no joke and no offense, before the Arab culture emerged. Check your history books "dude", Israel has fought how many wars against the Arab nations surround it's territory? How many times was it a draw? 0? How many times did Israel get attacked with no warning, and instead of losing, ended up conquering territory? Yeah that's right, Hamas will be no different. Israel clearly attempted to give Hamas a shot with the ceasefire that ended on the 27th. Hamas, never at one point honored their word and simply rearmed and continued to launch rockets. This is a direct result of their actions and now the supporting populous which is the Palestinian people must sit in their bed, for they have made it.
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mustafa, don't get me wrong but you got to think about this. suppose hamas has a nuke would they hesitate to use it ???? israel actually has nukes. they haven't used them. i call that restraint exercised by a civilised democracy. any objections ?
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Firstly, Im lebanese, so I know the history. Secondly, thats right Hamas is a small percentage, which is my point. Get the vast majority of Palestinians to take matters into their own hands and kick Hamas out. They can do it. By sitting and doing nothing, they are *supporting* Hamas. All the populous of a country pays for its governments' actions, which is what is happening now.
EliottA wrote:
Firstly, Im lebanese
Who isn't?
EliottA wrote:
so I know the history.
That makes two of us.
EliottA wrote:
Get the vast majority of Palestinians to take matters into their own hands and kick Hamas out. They can do it.
Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago. Like I said, the problem isn't Hamas. Hamas is a consequence of what hasn't been happening. That is, the people have been suffering for 60 years, and nothing good ever came out of it for them. Assume for one minute that Hamas isn't there, do you expect their rights to be returned to them? You're dreaming if you say yes. So what other options are there? The wall wasn't meant just to stop the shootings, it was supposed to limit their growth, take away land for their farming, and deny them access to an underground river that runs just outside the wall. In time, the Palestinians will starve to death and it will be "their fault" for not being able to manage their "country" when they were left alone. Then the wall will come down again.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Add to that continuous pain and suffering for over 60 years and you may begin to understand why things are so there.
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
he Palestinians will always fight or endure for their land.
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
EliottA wrote:
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
So you're saying acknowledging that it was taken? Interesting. I salute your honesty.
EliottA wrote:
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
Still theirs? I thought Israel had it for 60 years and its no longer Palestinian? Let me give you a little lesson. Before the arrival of recognized terror groups like the Haganah and ILZ, Muslims, Christians and Jews (all Arab and Palestinian) lived very happily there for eons. Then the whole Zionist movement came along and look what happened. In a nutshell, that is the cause of everything. Look to your history books for proof. Also, your implication is that there will either be an eradication, which will not hold anywhere, or the use of a Nuke that would destroy Israel as well.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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It is leadership. About 90% of the Jordanian population is not Jordanian per se. They're Palestinians. My father is an example. I don't count myself as either Palestinian or Jordanian but as an Arab but that's because I have a completely different ideology.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It is leadership.
Is there anyone on the horizon that can be effective or is this a permanent situation?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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No no, wait, we were discussing the death toll of Arab to Jew, as it pertains to conflicts between them, where the hell does WWII come into play? Also, its GB that really started the whole thing otherwise, Jews were more than happy to start their state in Uganda.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer