This is defense? [modified]
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EliottA wrote:
Firstly, Im lebanese
Who isn't?
EliottA wrote:
so I know the history.
That makes two of us.
EliottA wrote:
Get the vast majority of Palestinians to take matters into their own hands and kick Hamas out. They can do it.
Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago. Like I said, the problem isn't Hamas. Hamas is a consequence of what hasn't been happening. That is, the people have been suffering for 60 years, and nothing good ever came out of it for them. Assume for one minute that Hamas isn't there, do you expect their rights to be returned to them? You're dreaming if you say yes. So what other options are there? The wall wasn't meant just to stop the shootings, it was supposed to limit their growth, take away land for their farming, and deny them access to an underground river that runs just outside the wall. In time, the Palestinians will starve to death and it will be "their fault" for not being able to manage their "country" when they were left alone. Then the wall will come down again.
The wall isn't coming down, and it's meant to keep people out. not to block a river or anythign of the sort, Israel provides Palestine with water and food consistantly. And yes, if Hamas and other terrorist organizations would leave Israel alone, there would no need for Military actions.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago. Like I said, the problem isn't Hamas. Hamas is a consequence of what hasn't been happening. That is, the people have been suffering for 60 years, and nothing good ever came out of it for them.
No Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago, black October did, and other radical groups. They come and go as Israel eradicates them all slowly but surely.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Assume for one minute that Hamas isn't there
No assumptions, they ARE there, and as long as the Palestinian people allow them to be, then they(Hamas) will be targeted where they are located, which happens to be Gaza. Do you think for one second Israel would go into Gaza or the WB without cause? Without provocation? Now you're the one dreaming.
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I don't really need to. Israel has been home to the Jews for, and no joke and no offense, before the Arab culture emerged. Check your history books "dude", Israel has fought how many wars against the Arab nations surround it's territory? How many times was it a draw? 0? How many times did Israel get attacked with no warning, and instead of losing, ended up conquering territory? Yeah that's right, Hamas will be no different. Israel clearly attempted to give Hamas a shot with the ceasefire that ended on the 27th. Hamas, never at one point honored their word and simply rearmed and continued to launch rockets. This is a direct result of their actions and now the supporting populous which is the Palestinian people must sit in their bed, for they have made it.
EliottA wrote:
Israel has been home to the Jews for, and no joke and no offense, before the Arab culture emerged.
That's because Arabs is a relatively new term. However, the people have been there long before the Israelis came. Even the bible says that god promised to remove them from the land, but obviously never did, and then asked them to send spies to see what they were up to. Therefore, it's all god's fault.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
the majority of them wish to go back home, but can't
The truth is that many of them have never lived in Israel, Many Palestinians aren't even descended from people who lived in Israel. They come from Jordan but the Jordanians don't want them around any more than the Lebanese do.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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EliottA wrote:
Israel has been home to the Jews for, and no joke and no offense, before the Arab culture emerged.
That's because Arabs is a relatively new term. However, the people have been there long before the Israelis came. Even the bible says that god promised to remove them from the land, but obviously never did, and then asked them to send spies to see what they were up to. Therefore, it's all god's fault.
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EliottA wrote:
it wasn't yours for 60 years.
So you're saying acknowledging that it was taken? Interesting. I salute your honesty.
EliottA wrote:
It wont be yours for much longer if rockets keep coming
Still theirs? I thought Israel had it for 60 years and its no longer Palestinian? Let me give you a little lesson. Before the arrival of recognized terror groups like the Haganah and ILZ, Muslims, Christians and Jews (all Arab and Palestinian) lived very happily there for eons. Then the whole Zionist movement came along and look what happened. In a nutshell, that is the cause of everything. Look to your history books for proof. Also, your implication is that there will either be an eradication, which will not hold anywhere, or the use of a Nuke that would destroy Israel as well.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Before the arrival of recognized terror groups like the Haganah and ILZ, Muslims, Christians and Jews (all Arab and Palestinian) lived very happily there for eons.
I know, let's bring bring back the British! They can't fuck it up any worse than they already did. I think the most fun the Jews and Arabs had together before 1945 was when the Ba'ath Party was organized in direct imitation of the Nazis.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
And the Palestinians have only two conditions: the right of return and reimbursement
I really try top respect you, honest. But you make it very difficult when you start coming across with arguments that Adnan would support. Few of the Palestinians alive today ever lived in Israel. However, if this is a compelling argument, then Jordan - which controls 75% of the old Palestine mandate - should give them the land that belonged to the 600,000 Jews who either chose to leave, or were forced out, at the same time that the Arabs left the land claimed by Israel.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Think it will last if one side keeps caging up the other?
You mean the way Lebanon and Syria does the Palestinians? As to the Gaza strip being a cage - take it up with the Egyptians.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
the end of the month when my contract expires and I join the ranks of the unemployed).
Bad time to have that happen. I'm guessing unemployment insurance is not something you can count on.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I really try top respect you, honest. But you make it very difficult when you start coming across with arguments that Adnan would support.
Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make it less true. I'm telling you what my Palestinian friends have told me, and none of them have lived in Jordan, and all have lived in Palestine. Just because Jordan absorbed some, or a lot, doesn't mean the rest have no right to what is theirs.
Oakman wrote:
You mean the way Lebanon and Syria does the Palestinians?
Again, the majority of Palestinians don't want to lose their nationality. They're just waiting until they can go home. You making fun of it by blaming it on Lebanon or Syria does not change any of that. Go make friends with a dozen Palestinians and then ask them about what they want.
Oakman wrote:
Bad time to have that happen. I'm guessing unemployment insurance is not something you can count on.
It's something we've expected for a while. Unfortunately, the economy sucks better (or worse) than Jenna Jameson (don't get to use this expression often, but it is the SoapBox), so I'm having a hard time finding a new job.
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And I'm still being told that this is defense. Defense my ass. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm[^] and http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5053R720090115[^]
- A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza
- Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip reach 1,028 according to Gaza medical sources. Nearly a third of the dead are said to be children
- The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis.
- Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.About 700 people were still sheltering in the compound, he said, and he was particularly concerned about the proximity of the fire to five full fuel tanks. Asked whether he was sure the attack had been carried out by Israel, he said he was not aware of Hamas having access to white phosphorus. Mr Gunness added that Unrwa would not be able to distribute food or medical supplies on Thursday as its trucks were unable to leave the compound.
- More than 1,000 Gazans and 13 Israelis have reportedly died so far in the conflict.
- Dozens of terrified residents were seen fleeing on foot. Thousands more huddled in homes that provided precarious shelter while explosions tore through rubble-strewn streets clouded by smoke. "It is a catastrophe," one woman said, walking quickly away from the area and carrying a child in her arms as two other children ran behind her to keep up. "We took our money and passports. We have to carry some identification with us in case we get killed," she said. "Hamas can claim victory if it wants but we just need this bloodshed to end."
- A senior Western diplomat said Israel appeared to be trying to make last-minute gains on the groun
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
The vow of silence has been broken
And now, methinks, I am taking one. I've shot off my mouth far more than I intended when I first responded to you, and I suspect you have answered back a lot more than you meant. Oh well.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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The wall isn't coming down, and it's meant to keep people out. not to block a river or anythign of the sort, Israel provides Palestine with water and food consistantly. And yes, if Hamas and other terrorist organizations would leave Israel alone, there would no need for Military actions.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago. Like I said, the problem isn't Hamas. Hamas is a consequence of what hasn't been happening. That is, the people have been suffering for 60 years, and nothing good ever came out of it for them.
No Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago, black October did, and other radical groups. They come and go as Israel eradicates them all slowly but surely.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Assume for one minute that Hamas isn't there
No assumptions, they ARE there, and as long as the Palestinian people allow them to be, then they(Hamas) will be targeted where they are located, which happens to be Gaza. Do you think for one second Israel would go into Gaza or the WB without cause? Without provocation? Now you're the one dreaming.
EliottA wrote:
Israel provides Palestine with water and food consistantly.
Not according to the Palestinians, UN, or international news reporters. And on top of that, Israel did recently point one of their sewer systems towards Palestinian territory thereby contaminating the water. Ignoring or denying the facts doesn't make it any less true.
EliottA wrote:
No Hamas didn't exist 60 years ago, black October did, and other radical groups. They come and go as Israel eradicates them all slowly but surely.
So what you're saying is that the Palestinians have to work slowly to eradicate Israel and get their land back? I'll pass your ideas and well wishes to them.
EliottA wrote:
Do you think for one second Israel would go into Gaza or the WB without cause? Without provocation? Now you're the one dreaming.
I've seen them do it in Lebanon. So why wouldn't they do it in Palestine when they have repeatedly said that they wish to keep Israel a jewish state and they can't allow the Palestinian population to grow? You're obviously dreaming, but I'm having a nightmare. Thankfully, we'll both wake up one day and mine will improve a lot more while you wake up to reality.
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Oakman wrote:
I really try top respect you, honest. But you make it very difficult when you start coming across with arguments that Adnan would support.
Just because you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make it less true. I'm telling you what my Palestinian friends have told me, and none of them have lived in Jordan, and all have lived in Palestine. Just because Jordan absorbed some, or a lot, doesn't mean the rest have no right to what is theirs.
Oakman wrote:
You mean the way Lebanon and Syria does the Palestinians?
Again, the majority of Palestinians don't want to lose their nationality. They're just waiting until they can go home. You making fun of it by blaming it on Lebanon or Syria does not change any of that. Go make friends with a dozen Palestinians and then ask them about what they want.
Oakman wrote:
Bad time to have that happen. I'm guessing unemployment insurance is not something you can count on.
It's something we've expected for a while. Unfortunately, the economy sucks better (or worse) than Jenna Jameson (don't get to use this expression often, but it is the SoapBox), so I'm having a hard time finding a new job.
I've decided that I have said more than I intended to awhile back, so I shan't say any more about the Middle East (at least until tomorrow.)
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
It's something we've expected for a while. Unfortunately, the economy sucks better (or worse) than Jenna Jameson (don't get to use this expression often, but it is the SoapBox), so I'm having a hard time finding a new job.
It doesn't look any better on this side of the pond, either. We're going to see a bunch of bankruptcies in the next month or two that will send the economy into a steeper nosedive. My advice would be to take any job this side of shoveling shit for the circus elephants, and spend your evenings inventing the next Tetris - or Doom if your mind runs that way.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Before the arrival of recognized terror groups like the Haganah and ILZ, Muslims, Christians and Jews (all Arab and Palestinian) lived very happily there for eons.
I know, let's bring bring back the British! They can't fuck it up any worse than they already did. I think the most fun the Jews and Arabs had together before 1945 was when the Ba'ath Party was organized in direct imitation of the Nazis.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
No, we need to bring back the Ottoman empire. Ottomans look great in the living room. But seriously, that area has only seen crap for 60 years. It's been continuously populated for thousands of years and only in the recent present has non-stop conflict been a problem. I blame it on the lack of Roman orgies.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
the majority of them wish to go back home, but can't
The truth is that many of them have never lived in Israel, Many Palestinians aren't even descended from people who lived in Israel. They come from Jordan but the Jordanians don't want them around any more than the Lebanese do.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Which Palestinians have you been talking to? The ones I talk to were born in Palestine and go back and visit every few years. The ones who lived in Jordan probably still live in Jordan. Those who live in Syria, Lebanon, US, Egypt are usually from Palestine. Yeah, the young ones were born in refugee camps, but their parents raise them as Palestinians, not as refugees or nationals of the country they were born in because they don't want it. The US has a similar problem with anchor babies.
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I've decided that I have said more than I intended to awhile back, so I shan't say any more about the Middle East (at least until tomorrow.)
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
It's something we've expected for a while. Unfortunately, the economy sucks better (or worse) than Jenna Jameson (don't get to use this expression often, but it is the SoapBox), so I'm having a hard time finding a new job.
It doesn't look any better on this side of the pond, either. We're going to see a bunch of bankruptcies in the next month or two that will send the economy into a steeper nosedive. My advice would be to take any job this side of shoveling shit for the circus elephants, and spend your evenings inventing the next Tetris - or Doom if your mind runs that way.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
I've decided that I have said more than I intended to awhile back, so I shan't say any more about the Middle East (at least until tomorrow.)
Again, I understand that. Most people only see one side of the equation. We've been there for 60 years. We won, they lost. We'll kill them if they try. What people don't understand is if the other side hasn't given up the fight, and is just stringing you along, then the fight isn't over.
Oakman wrote:
My advice would be to take any job this side of shoveling sh*t for the circus elephants, and spend your evenings inventing the next Tetris - or Doom if your mind runs that way.
It's not as easy as that. On the plus side, my son is young enough that he may think shoveling circus elephant shit is a cool job.
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
The vow of silence has been broken
And now, methinks, I am taking one. I've shot off my mouth far more than I intended when I first responded to you, and I suspect you have answered back a lot more than you meant. Oh well.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Jon, I'll happily cross [s]words with you again. You're an honorable, knowledgeable man that's not afraid of pointing out his points and I have an immense amount of respect for you. I didn't want to respond to a single thread to be honest, but Elliot had to start with the name calling game which I consider to be extremely childish and ineffective but he's heeded what was said which is good. Just because its a near free for all it doesn't mean we sink to the levels of Illiot.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
It is leadership.
Is there anyone on the horizon that can be effective or is this a permanent situation?
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Several dozen and the whole new generation as well, but it needs patience and it needs to be nurtured properly. Sadly, the world is without patience and tactics like the ones Dubya decided on using along with the ones Israel employs again and again is certainly hampering if not backpedaling the whole thing. I'd like to think that I'm one of the new generation that I'm talking about.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
The vow of silence has been broken
And now, methinks, I am taking one. I've shot off my mouth far more than I intended when I first responded to you, and I suspect you have answered back a lot more than you meant. Oh well.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
BTW, I can't find the original post regarding Egypt, I forgot to answer that one because my parents showed up to see their Grandson. I have slammed them. I've written two articles to the local newspapers (I've previously had two such articles published, one for Progressive politics and a state of mind and the other with respect to what's stalling the Peace process) Sadly, it hasn't been published and I think the reason is that there is some sort of media blanketing occurring. One day, the Egyptians will overthrow the dictatorship they're in.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Several dozen and the whole new generation as well, but it needs patience and it needs to be nurtured properly. Sadly, the world is without patience and tactics like the ones Dubya decided on using along with the ones Israel employs again and again is certainly hampering if not backpedaling the whole thing. I'd like to think that I'm one of the new generation that I'm talking about.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
I'd like to think that I'm one of the new generation that I'm talking about.
Well, I hope you get a time in the sun as we say. You certainly seem to be a reasonable, thinking individual. I'll say a prayer.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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BoneSoft wrote:
But I too think it's just a matter of time until some jihadi somewhere gets their hands on a wad of uranium. It's a scarey world these days.
My guess is Pakistan is the supplier, not Iran, but it sure is scarey. It's one of the reasons I live in a rural area.
BoneSoft wrote:
Then again, the good ol' boring days were probably only that way because I didn't see what was happening in the world.
Problem was that while it was boring over here, the world was pouring money into the hands of a bunch of nomads whose idea of civilization was to remember to wipe their ass with the fingers of one hand and eat with the fingers of the other. And honorable warfare meant not to fuck the other guy's wives after you killed them. Unfortunately these guys became so rich that they threw out the relatively civilized rulers of the Arab world and set themselves up in their place.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
My guess is Pakistan is the supplier, not Iran
I'm not talking about this particular current conflict, but Jihadis in general. Of which, Iran is the radical Jihadi run government that is closest to aquiring nukes. And I'm thinking the second they get one they'll aim it as Israel.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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I don't really need to. Israel has been home to the Jews for, and no joke and no offense, before the Arab culture emerged. Check your history books "dude", Israel has fought how many wars against the Arab nations surround it's territory? How many times was it a draw? 0? How many times did Israel get attacked with no warning, and instead of losing, ended up conquering territory? Yeah that's right, Hamas will be no different. Israel clearly attempted to give Hamas a shot with the ceasefire that ended on the 27th. Hamas, never at one point honored their word and simply rearmed and continued to launch rockets. This is a direct result of their actions and now the supporting populous which is the Palestinian people must sit in their bed, for they have made it.
You really are mixing up ethnicity with creed. People, whose descendants are now the Palestinians have been living there since before Judaism existed and if you think otherwise, you are sadly lost in your own world. Get your facts straight and come back. There are Palestinian Jews, Christians and Muslims and they all refer to themselves as Palestinians. Creed has nothing to do with ethnicity.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer
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Whereabouts in the States are you man? Just curious.
Don't forget to vote if the response was helpful
Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa "There is no wealth like knowledge, no poverty like ignorance" Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote: Keep it up. Fool.
I now think of you as Mr. T! - Trollslayer