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  4. Economic Stimulus? Not from where I'm looking

Economic Stimulus? Not from where I'm looking

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  • O Oakman

    I've said more'n once that I'm hoping that Obama has the smarts and the guts to pull the country out of the tailspin the last 4 Presidents have put us in. Howbloodyever, the 825 billion dollar package presented in the house by "what me worry; it's your money," Pelosi bears little resemblance to what I thought Obama was talking about a little more than a week ago. As I understood it the two major areas to be focussed on were infrastructure (aka bricks-and-mortar) and tax cuts/rebates. We were assured by the President-elect that pork-barrel appropriations were a thing of the past. So what did we get for our $825B? Infrastructure - 92B (32 transportation; 31 federal bldgs; 19 waterways; 10 railroad and mass transit) That's 11% Taxes 255B (in the form of tax credits, not cuts and not rebates) two year additional credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple (total 'cost' about 140B) A cornucopia of tax credits for tuition and child care and hiring juvenile delinquents or vets (I find that grouping a bit off-putting) and a doubling of the immediate writeoffs for capital expenditures guesstimated to be, in total, around 115B That's around 30% The other 60% goes to projects that must make Pelosi all goosebumpy: Public Housing; Healthcare; Education; Food Stamps; Unemployment (not insurance, cause this was never paid for, it's a pure benefit) home heating subsidies (anybody told congress that the price of oil has dropped and is expected to continue to drop for at least another year???) Internet for rural areas; new electricity grid (which will cost as much as is allotted to all of transporation) etc.etc.etc. totalling 600 bi-mfing-llion dollars. Source[^] Don't get me wrong. Some of those other projects are good ideas. Some of them may be necessary to the survival of the country - and some of them are pork like only Denny Hastert used to serve. But they damn well ain't economically stimulating. If they should be enacted, they should be considered individually and signed into law individually so we can tell who wants to help the USA and who just wants to pick our pocket. Scenario A. Obama and Pelosi get into a power struggle. Scenario B. Obama enthusiastically endorces the Pelosi plan Scenario C. Obama doesn't like it, but realises that it might be

    M Offline
    M Offline
    Mike Gaskey
    wrote on last edited by
    #4

    Hope + Change + bullshit - all bundled up and ready to go

    Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.

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    • O Oakman

      I've said more'n once that I'm hoping that Obama has the smarts and the guts to pull the country out of the tailspin the last 4 Presidents have put us in. Howbloodyever, the 825 billion dollar package presented in the house by "what me worry; it's your money," Pelosi bears little resemblance to what I thought Obama was talking about a little more than a week ago. As I understood it the two major areas to be focussed on were infrastructure (aka bricks-and-mortar) and tax cuts/rebates. We were assured by the President-elect that pork-barrel appropriations were a thing of the past. So what did we get for our $825B? Infrastructure - 92B (32 transportation; 31 federal bldgs; 19 waterways; 10 railroad and mass transit) That's 11% Taxes 255B (in the form of tax credits, not cuts and not rebates) two year additional credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple (total 'cost' about 140B) A cornucopia of tax credits for tuition and child care and hiring juvenile delinquents or vets (I find that grouping a bit off-putting) and a doubling of the immediate writeoffs for capital expenditures guesstimated to be, in total, around 115B That's around 30% The other 60% goes to projects that must make Pelosi all goosebumpy: Public Housing; Healthcare; Education; Food Stamps; Unemployment (not insurance, cause this was never paid for, it's a pure benefit) home heating subsidies (anybody told congress that the price of oil has dropped and is expected to continue to drop for at least another year???) Internet for rural areas; new electricity grid (which will cost as much as is allotted to all of transporation) etc.etc.etc. totalling 600 bi-mfing-llion dollars. Source[^] Don't get me wrong. Some of those other projects are good ideas. Some of them may be necessary to the survival of the country - and some of them are pork like only Denny Hastert used to serve. But they damn well ain't economically stimulating. If they should be enacted, they should be considered individually and signed into law individually so we can tell who wants to help the USA and who just wants to pick our pocket. Scenario A. Obama and Pelosi get into a power struggle. Scenario B. Obama enthusiastically endorces the Pelosi plan Scenario C. Obama doesn't like it, but realises that it might be

      L Offline
      L Offline
      Lost User
      wrote on last edited by
      #5

      But will $825B be enough? I rather suspect not. But Pelosi, is she really going to make life that difficult (or at least awkward) for Obama - aren't they both supposed to be Democrats batting for the same team - and what kind of power does Obama have in order to compel Congress to his point of view.

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      • O Oakman

        Rob Graham wrote:

        Or does she just like putting money in Chavez' pockets?

        Funny story on the news this morning about Chavez - seems he's running around inviting oil companies to "invest" in the Venezuelan oil production. These are the same companies, of course, whose previous investment was nationalized by Chavez.

        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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        Rob Graham
        wrote on last edited by
        #6

        I hope the Venezuelan people don't invest in a third term for him.

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        • L Lost User

          But will $825B be enough? I rather suspect not. But Pelosi, is she really going to make life that difficult (or at least awkward) for Obama - aren't they both supposed to be Democrats batting for the same team - and what kind of power does Obama have in order to compel Congress to his point of view.

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          Rob Graham
          wrote on last edited by
          #7

          Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.

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          • R Rob Graham

            Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.

            O Offline
            O Offline
            Oakman
            wrote on last edited by
            #8

            Rob Graham wrote:

            One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation

            Reid has already announced that he "doesn't work for Obama." He could have added, "or the good of the country," without in any way being untruthful.

            Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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            • R Rob Graham

              Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.

              L Offline
              L Offline
              Lost User
              wrote on last edited by
              #9

              So, from what you say, fireworks are to be expected. Doesn't bode well :~

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              • O Oakman

                I've said more'n once that I'm hoping that Obama has the smarts and the guts to pull the country out of the tailspin the last 4 Presidents have put us in. Howbloodyever, the 825 billion dollar package presented in the house by "what me worry; it's your money," Pelosi bears little resemblance to what I thought Obama was talking about a little more than a week ago. As I understood it the two major areas to be focussed on were infrastructure (aka bricks-and-mortar) and tax cuts/rebates. We were assured by the President-elect that pork-barrel appropriations were a thing of the past. So what did we get for our $825B? Infrastructure - 92B (32 transportation; 31 federal bldgs; 19 waterways; 10 railroad and mass transit) That's 11% Taxes 255B (in the form of tax credits, not cuts and not rebates) two year additional credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple (total 'cost' about 140B) A cornucopia of tax credits for tuition and child care and hiring juvenile delinquents or vets (I find that grouping a bit off-putting) and a doubling of the immediate writeoffs for capital expenditures guesstimated to be, in total, around 115B That's around 30% The other 60% goes to projects that must make Pelosi all goosebumpy: Public Housing; Healthcare; Education; Food Stamps; Unemployment (not insurance, cause this was never paid for, it's a pure benefit) home heating subsidies (anybody told congress that the price of oil has dropped and is expected to continue to drop for at least another year???) Internet for rural areas; new electricity grid (which will cost as much as is allotted to all of transporation) etc.etc.etc. totalling 600 bi-mfing-llion dollars. Source[^] Don't get me wrong. Some of those other projects are good ideas. Some of them may be necessary to the survival of the country - and some of them are pork like only Denny Hastert used to serve. But they damn well ain't economically stimulating. If they should be enacted, they should be considered individually and signed into law individually so we can tell who wants to help the USA and who just wants to pick our pocket. Scenario A. Obama and Pelosi get into a power struggle. Scenario B. Obama enthusiastically endorces the Pelosi plan Scenario C. Obama doesn't like it, but realises that it might be

                J Offline
                J Offline
                Jim Warburton
                wrote on last edited by
                #10

                Oakman wrote:

                new electricity grid

                You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].

                this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak

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                • O Oakman

                  Rob Graham wrote:

                  One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation

                  Reid has already announced that he "doesn't work for Obama." He could have added, "or the good of the country," without in any way being untruthful.

                  Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                  R Offline
                  Rob Graham
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #11

                  Well, we already knew the latter, so he avoided being his usual redundant self be leaving it out. The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.

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                  • L Lost User

                    So, from what you say, fireworks are to be expected. Doesn't bode well :~

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                    R Offline
                    Rob Graham
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #12

                    You have to understand that Reid and Pelosi don't like Obama. He was useful to help increase their respective holds on power, but they don't feel comfortable that he's "under control" or "with the program" (they're right, he's neither). They'd really like him to shut up and let them run things now... Obama is going to have to pull Reagan's trick, and hammer them with pressure from the public. He's certainly capable of doing that, the only question is whether he is both willing and aware of the need.

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                    • J Jim Warburton

                      Oakman wrote:

                      new electricity grid

                      You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].

                      this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak

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                      O Offline
                      Oakman
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #13

                      jimwawar wrote:

                      You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork

                      I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:

                      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                      • J Jim Warburton

                        Oakman wrote:

                        new electricity grid

                        You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].

                        this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak

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                        D Offline
                        Dan Neely
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #14

                        I have to agree. The NIMBY's and BANANA's have been so successful that the large carrying reserve the grid used to have is almost entirely gone. 25 years ago we had almost 30% reserve capacity above peak, currently it's down to about 5%. If the situation wasn't so tight to begin with the asshats in enron wouldn't've been able to create rolling blackouts while robbing CA blind.

                        Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall

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                        • O Oakman

                          jimwawar wrote:

                          You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork

                          I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:

                          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                          M Offline
                          MidwestLimey
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #15

                          Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??

                          Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore

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                          • O Oakman

                            jimwawar wrote:

                            You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork

                            I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:

                            Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                            R Offline
                            Rob Graham
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #16

                            The grid is infrastucture, of the most basic sort.

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                            • R Rob Graham

                              Well, we already knew the latter, so he avoided being his usual redundant self be leaving it out. The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.

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                              O Offline
                              Oakman
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #17

                              Rob Graham wrote:

                              The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.

                              Is it possible that a bunch of folks from Utah sneaked over the state line and registered as Democrats to vote for their co-religionist?

                              Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                              • M MidwestLimey

                                Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??

                                Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore

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                                O Offline
                                Oakman
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #18

                                MidwestLimey wrote:

                                Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??

                                Will both create the same number of high paying jobs in the next year or two? If so, I am wrong.

                                Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                                • O Oakman

                                  jimwawar wrote:

                                  You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork

                                  I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:

                                  Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

                                  J Offline
                                  J Offline
                                  Jim Warburton
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #19

                                  Oakman wrote:

                                  What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer

                                  Nothing, your meaning was clear. Which is why I disagree with you. The electricity grid is infrastructure. While only marginally better than Wikipedia, the US Gov DOE agrees[^]

                                  this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak

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                                  • J Jim Warburton

                                    Oakman wrote:

                                    What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer

                                    Nothing, your meaning was clear. Which is why I disagree with you. The electricity grid is infrastructure. While only marginally better than Wikipedia, the US Gov DOE agrees[^]

                                    this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak

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                                    O Offline
                                    Oakman
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #20

                                    jimwawar wrote:

                                    Nothing, your meaning was clear

                                    Was it clear when I said that infrastructure was also known as bricks and mortar? Remember, please, that my post was about economic stimuli. It is my understanding that a new grid - however necessary it might be - cannot be considered "shovel-ready" inside the next four months, which means that any funding devoted to it will not serve as an economic stimulus in the next year or two. If I am wrong and the project is ready to go, then I humbly beg your pardon.

                                    Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                                    • O Oakman

                                      Rob Graham wrote:

                                      The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.

                                      Is it possible that a bunch of folks from Utah sneaked over the state line and registered as Democrats to vote for their co-religionist?

                                      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

                                      D Offline
                                      D Offline
                                      Dan Neely
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #21

                                      Look at religious demographics, no sneaking needed. Mormons make up large parts of northern nevada/southern idaho. Also Utah Mormons would never vote for a dem nationally. After DC it's the most non competitive state in the nation. An aquaintance who moved there from out of state described the political process as "Whoever screams 'Family Values' loudest in the R Primaries gets elected in November".

                                      Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall

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                                      • O Oakman

                                        jimwawar wrote:

                                        Nothing, your meaning was clear

                                        Was it clear when I said that infrastructure was also known as bricks and mortar? Remember, please, that my post was about economic stimuli. It is my understanding that a new grid - however necessary it might be - cannot be considered "shovel-ready" inside the next four months, which means that any funding devoted to it will not serve as an economic stimulus in the next year or two. If I am wrong and the project is ready to go, then I humbly beg your pardon.

                                        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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                                        D Offline
                                        Dan Neely
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #22

                                        I don't know about large scale expansions. But as a result of damage from a hurricane remnant blowing through this fall western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines. This would be easy enough to expand with more people.

                                        Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall

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                                        • D Dan Neely

                                          I don't know about large scale expansions. But as a result of damage from a hurricane remnant blowing through this fall western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines. This would be easy enough to expand with more people.

                                          Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall

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                                          O Offline
                                          Oakman
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #23

                                          dan neely wrote:

                                          western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines

                                          Would this fit in the new grid bucket? I just took a look at what I could find re: the Smart Grid, and it appears that the first step is to build a single centralized control center. According to a report[^] from The Pew Center on Global Climate Change and the National Commission on Energy Policy, everything else needs to wait on this, and some of it will not go online until 30 years from now. Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Smart Grid will do much to lift the economy out of the doldrums in the next couple of years. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea nor that we shouldn't start implementing it now - but I'd like to see it voted on separately, not added to an economic stimulus package.

                                          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

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