Economic Stimulus? Not from where I'm looking
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But will $825B be enough? I rather suspect not. But Pelosi, is she really going to make life that difficult (or at least awkward) for Obama - aren't they both supposed to be Democrats batting for the same team - and what kind of power does Obama have in order to compel Congress to his point of view.
Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.
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Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.
Rob Graham wrote:
One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation
Reid has already announced that he "doesn't work for Obama." He could have added, "or the good of the country," without in any way being untruthful.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation
Reid has already announced that he "doesn't work for Obama." He could have added, "or the good of the country," without in any way being untruthful.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Well, we already knew the latter, so he avoided being his usual redundant self be leaving it out. The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.
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Democrats have always been notoriously skilled at organizing circular firing squads. Pelosi and Reid won't gladly work "with" Obama unless forced to. One of the greatest fears from my Clinton-Democrat friends was that Obama would be too weak to stand up to either or both of those asshats, who care only about personal and party power, not the welfare of the nation.
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I've said more'n once that I'm hoping that Obama has the smarts and the guts to pull the country out of the tailspin the last 4 Presidents have put us in. Howbloodyever, the 825 billion dollar package presented in the house by "what me worry; it's your money," Pelosi bears little resemblance to what I thought Obama was talking about a little more than a week ago. As I understood it the two major areas to be focussed on were infrastructure (aka bricks-and-mortar) and tax cuts/rebates. We were assured by the President-elect that pork-barrel appropriations were a thing of the past. So what did we get for our $825B? Infrastructure - 92B (32 transportation; 31 federal bldgs; 19 waterways; 10 railroad and mass transit) That's 11% Taxes 255B (in the form of tax credits, not cuts and not rebates) two year additional credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple (total 'cost' about 140B) A cornucopia of tax credits for tuition and child care and hiring juvenile delinquents or vets (I find that grouping a bit off-putting) and a doubling of the immediate writeoffs for capital expenditures guesstimated to be, in total, around 115B That's around 30% The other 60% goes to projects that must make Pelosi all goosebumpy: Public Housing; Healthcare; Education; Food Stamps; Unemployment (not insurance, cause this was never paid for, it's a pure benefit) home heating subsidies (anybody told congress that the price of oil has dropped and is expected to continue to drop for at least another year???) Internet for rural areas; new electricity grid (which will cost as much as is allotted to all of transporation) etc.etc.etc. totalling 600 bi-mfing-llion dollars. Source[^] Don't get me wrong. Some of those other projects are good ideas. Some of them may be necessary to the survival of the country - and some of them are pork like only Denny Hastert used to serve. But they damn well ain't economically stimulating. If they should be enacted, they should be considered individually and signed into law individually so we can tell who wants to help the USA and who just wants to pick our pocket. Scenario A. Obama and Pelosi get into a power struggle. Scenario B. Obama enthusiastically endorces the Pelosi plan Scenario C. Obama doesn't like it, but realises that it might be
Oakman wrote:
new electricity grid
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].
this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak
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You have to understand that Reid and Pelosi don't like Obama. He was useful to help increase their respective holds on power, but they don't feel comfortable that he's "under control" or "with the program" (they're right, he's neither). They'd really like him to shut up and let them run things now... Obama is going to have to pull Reagan's trick, and hammer them with pressure from the public. He's certainly capable of doing that, the only question is whether he is both willing and aware of the need.
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Oakman wrote:
new electricity grid
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].
this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak
jimwawar wrote:
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork
I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Oakman wrote:
new electricity grid
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork. The black out in the midwest and northeast in 2003 (I think I have the year correct) was in part a result of a poor grid. Electricity costs can be higher due to bottle necks in the grid. According to the American Society of Civil Engineers the grid remains a cause for deep concern among experts[^].
this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak
I have to agree. The NIMBY's and BANANA's have been so successful that the large carrying reserve the grid used to have is almost entirely gone. 25 years ago we had almost 30% reserve capacity above peak, currently it's down to about 5%. If the situation wasn't so tight to begin with the asshats in enron wouldn't've been able to create rolling blackouts while robbing CA blind.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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jimwawar wrote:
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork
I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
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jimwawar wrote:
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork
I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
The grid is infrastucture, of the most basic sort.
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Well, we already knew the latter, so he avoided being his usual redundant self be leaving it out. The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.
Rob Graham wrote:
The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.
Is it possible that a bunch of folks from Utah sneaked over the state line and registered as Democrats to vote for their co-religionist?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
MidwestLimey wrote:
Modern society can run without the grid as effectivley as it can run with out roads. Both surely ARE infrastructure??
Will both create the same number of high paying jobs in the next year or two? If so, I am wrong.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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jimwawar wrote:
You are wrong to put the electricity grid in with pork
I put the grid in with everything that was not infrastructure or tax relief. I specifically wrote that some of what was proposed in that third category was a good idea and some could be necessary to the nation's survival. What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer? :confused:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer
Nothing, your meaning was clear. Which is why I disagree with you. The electricity grid is infrastructure. While only marginally better than Wikipedia, the US Gov DOE agrees[^]
this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak
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Oakman wrote:
What could I have written that would have made my meaning clearer
Nothing, your meaning was clear. Which is why I disagree with you. The electricity grid is infrastructure. While only marginally better than Wikipedia, the US Gov DOE agrees[^]
this thing looks like it was written by an epileptic ferret Dave Kreskowiak
jimwawar wrote:
Nothing, your meaning was clear
Was it clear when I said that infrastructure was also known as bricks and mortar? Remember, please, that my post was about economic stimuli. It is my understanding that a new grid - however necessary it might be - cannot be considered "shovel-ready" inside the next four months, which means that any funding devoted to it will not serve as an economic stimulus in the next year or two. If I am wrong and the project is ready to go, then I humbly beg your pardon.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Rob Graham wrote:
The citizens of Nevada should hang their heads in shame.
Is it possible that a bunch of folks from Utah sneaked over the state line and registered as Democrats to vote for their co-religionist?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Look at religious demographics, no sneaking needed. Mormons make up large parts of northern nevada/southern idaho. Also Utah Mormons would never vote for a dem nationally. After DC it's the most non competitive state in the nation. An aquaintance who moved there from out of state described the political process as "Whoever screams 'Family Values' loudest in the R Primaries gets elected in November".
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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jimwawar wrote:
Nothing, your meaning was clear
Was it clear when I said that infrastructure was also known as bricks and mortar? Remember, please, that my post was about economic stimuli. It is my understanding that a new grid - however necessary it might be - cannot be considered "shovel-ready" inside the next four months, which means that any funding devoted to it will not serve as an economic stimulus in the next year or two. If I am wrong and the project is ready to go, then I humbly beg your pardon.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I don't know about large scale expansions. But as a result of damage from a hurricane remnant blowing through this fall western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines. This would be easy enough to expand with more people.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
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I don't know about large scale expansions. But as a result of damage from a hurricane remnant blowing through this fall western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines. This would be easy enough to expand with more people.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall
dan neely wrote:
western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines
Would this fit in the new grid bucket? I just took a look at what I could find re: the Smart Grid, and it appears that the first step is to build a single centralized control center. According to a report[^] from The Pew Center on Global Climate Change and the National Commission on Energy Policy, everything else needs to wait on this, and some of it will not go online until 30 years from now. Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Smart Grid will do much to lift the economy out of the doldrums in the next couple of years. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea nor that we shouldn't start implementing it now - but I'd like to see it voted on separately, not added to an economic stimulus package.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I've said more'n once that I'm hoping that Obama has the smarts and the guts to pull the country out of the tailspin the last 4 Presidents have put us in. Howbloodyever, the 825 billion dollar package presented in the house by "what me worry; it's your money," Pelosi bears little resemblance to what I thought Obama was talking about a little more than a week ago. As I understood it the two major areas to be focussed on were infrastructure (aka bricks-and-mortar) and tax cuts/rebates. We were assured by the President-elect that pork-barrel appropriations were a thing of the past. So what did we get for our $825B? Infrastructure - 92B (32 transportation; 31 federal bldgs; 19 waterways; 10 railroad and mass transit) That's 11% Taxes 255B (in the form of tax credits, not cuts and not rebates) two year additional credit of $500 per worker or $1,000 per couple (total 'cost' about 140B) A cornucopia of tax credits for tuition and child care and hiring juvenile delinquents or vets (I find that grouping a bit off-putting) and a doubling of the immediate writeoffs for capital expenditures guesstimated to be, in total, around 115B That's around 30% The other 60% goes to projects that must make Pelosi all goosebumpy: Public Housing; Healthcare; Education; Food Stamps; Unemployment (not insurance, cause this was never paid for, it's a pure benefit) home heating subsidies (anybody told congress that the price of oil has dropped and is expected to continue to drop for at least another year???) Internet for rural areas; new electricity grid (which will cost as much as is allotted to all of transporation) etc.etc.etc. totalling 600 bi-mfing-llion dollars. Source[^] Don't get me wrong. Some of those other projects are good ideas. Some of them may be necessary to the survival of the country - and some of them are pork like only Denny Hastert used to serve. But they damn well ain't economically stimulating. If they should be enacted, they should be considered individually and signed into law individually so we can tell who wants to help the USA and who just wants to pick our pocket. Scenario A. Obama and Pelosi get into a power struggle. Scenario B. Obama enthusiastically endorces the Pelosi plan Scenario C. Obama doesn't like it, but realises that it might be
As I've been saying, Obama has no choice but to at least attempt to make some effort to govern as a centrist becuase he is answerable to the entire country. Pelosi is answerable to no one but the People's Republic of San Francisco. If Obama opposes her, he will lose. He is in a no-win situation.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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As I've been saying, Obama has no choice but to at least attempt to make some effort to govern as a centrist becuase he is answerable to the entire country. Pelosi is answerable to no one but the People's Republic of San Francisco. If Obama opposes her, he will lose. He is in a no-win situation.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Treasure this: I am afraid you are right. edit On the other hand, maybe he can pull a Reagan and go on TV and urge people to write their congress-critters. I suspect that the threat of that, if not used too often, might cow her sufficiently.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Friday, January 16, 2009 3:56 PM
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dan neely wrote:
western PA has a 9mo backlog of damaged trees the power companies need cut to protect the local lines
Would this fit in the new grid bucket? I just took a look at what I could find re: the Smart Grid, and it appears that the first step is to build a single centralized control center. According to a report[^] from The Pew Center on Global Climate Change and the National Commission on Energy Policy, everything else needs to wait on this, and some of it will not go online until 30 years from now. Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't appear that the Smart Grid will do much to lift the economy out of the doldrums in the next couple of years. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good idea nor that we shouldn't start implementing it now - but I'd like to see it voted on separately, not added to an economic stimulus package.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
I've only read the first page or so, but I'd assume most of the additional complexity needed would come from millions of new distributed micro power plants (eg solar roofs), not from expansion of the base infrastructure for large scale operations. PS elsewhere I read a post from the editor of a major industrial automation trade journal. He mentioned having put together a whitepaperish thingy on what was needed for the grid. I'll see if I can find the post, but IIRC he did say there were needed upgrades that could be started quickly.
Today's lesson is brought to you by the word "niggardly". Remember kids, don't attribute to racism what can be explained by Scandinavian language roots. -- Robert Royall