The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]
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H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days. :sigh: When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
I almost went into engineering, but liked computers better.
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H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days. :sigh: When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
b.s. The majority of H1Bs that I worked with were neither better educated, nor smarter, nor more skilled than their American counterparts - in some cases, I watched as Americans were required to train their H1B replacements. The one advantage to the company of the H1B employee was cost. They were being paid from ten to thirty thousand less per year than the person who was now unemployed.
Trollslayer wrote:
When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
But you are not in the U.S. are you? Sharing your experience, though informative, shed no light for me on what is happening in this country. Indeed, from what you said and didn't say, I have to wonder if you have an equivalent of the H1B visa program in the U.K. FYI there are published studies demonstrating that the vast majority of H1Bs in this country - who can be nurses, lab techs, etc. as well as IT people - are paid less than the prevailing wage for the job in question.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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I have respect for engineers! I compliment my friend for having a good engineering brain. He, strangely, insults me by saying I have the 'Mind of an Accountant'.
------------------------------------ "The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion" Arthur C Clarke
Dalek Dave wrote:
I compliment my friend for having a good engineering brain.
Does he keep it in a jar?
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H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US. We have the same problem in the UK, it's not considered a good career these days. :sigh: When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
Of course there is a shortage. There is little finical motivation to enter the field when even R&D is moving overseas to cheaper labor markets.
Trollslayer wrote:
hey end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
I've seen it many times in the US where the H1B folks make substantially less than their domestic counterparts. More so in software than in manufacturing and product development roles. But, the wage difference does exist.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon? I've been wondering about the outsourcing for a while, now and what happens when there isn't any 3rd world country to send the work too. When there isn't, what then? Are goods and services are artificially under priced then? Whether its food or electronics people don't know where there stuff comes from or care. They just want it cheap and plentiful. For example a girlfriend of a coworker of mine a while back didn't know that prunes are dried out plums and she's a nurse. Go figure. Jessica Simpson thought 'Chicken of the Sea' was real chicken and not fish. It reminds me of the movie Idiocracy. If the majority of Americans don't want the bank bailout money to be released again shouldn't that be the end of it? Isn't that how democracy should work?
Oakman wrote:
Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
wolfbinary wrote:
Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon?
Me? Flame??? No, the article I linked to didn't piss me off. But the paragraph about this not being a cyclical downturn in employment scared me. (Not for myself. These days, I don't work for a paycheck.) What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses. If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Dalek Dave wrote:
I compliment my friend for having a good engineering brain.
Does he keep it in a jar?
No, he jury rigged a Cranial Containment Vessel from some old girders, string, a toothpaste tube and a saucepan. Couple of bits of rubber tubing and he was ready to go!
------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Q. How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane? A. They switch the engines off and the whining continues.
Oakman wrote:
Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties
Don't quite know why you dragged socialism into that phrase, but you have got precisely what you voted for, TWICE with the neo-con Bush farce. Although very few DON'T suspect foul-play along the way re: vote rigging. A.
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Q. How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane? A. They switch the engines off and the whining continues.
Oakman wrote:
Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties
Don't quite know why you dragged socialism into that phrase, but you have got precisely what you voted for, TWICE with the neo-con Bush farce. Although very few DON'T suspect foul-play along the way re: vote rigging. A.
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wolfbinary wrote:
Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon?
Me? Flame??? No, the article I linked to didn't piss me off. But the paragraph about this not being a cyclical downturn in employment scared me. (Not for myself. These days, I don't work for a paycheck.) What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses. If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion.
Oakman wrote:
What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
I agree completely with this sentiment. Fear Factor Fox News has been saying some rather despicable things lately.
Oakman wrote:
If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Obviously I agree with your point here. This is not a good thing. I'm not saying the US should be any different. I don't know what the EU, China or Mexico practices? I've not read anything about them with regards to protectionism.
Oakman wrote:
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses.
This being true, then I don't see anything wrong with making labor or products manufactured in other countries cost no more than here. If erasing the advantage of shipping work to other countries was done maybe the stamp of 'made in America' would mean what it used to. One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here. How do you reconcile that business issue?
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Q. How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane? A. They switch the engines off and the whining continues.
Oakman wrote:
Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties
Don't quite know why you dragged socialism into that phrase, but you have got precisely what you voted for, TWICE with the neo-con Bush farce. Although very few DON'T suspect foul-play along the way re: vote rigging. A.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane?
That's why it's called the soapbox. Debate, concerns, things like that, it's what some of us like to do with issues. Why bother coming to the forum then?:confused:
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wolfbinary wrote:
Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon?
Me? Flame??? No, the article I linked to didn't piss me off. But the paragraph about this not being a cyclical downturn in employment scared me. (Not for myself. These days, I don't work for a paycheck.) What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses. If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
scared me
and your not alone. I have friends in NY, 2 are unemployed (layed off recently) and 1 works and goes to school. I think her exact words were 'The US is going down'. She is actually looking for a job in europe because it doesn't look like they'll find any there soon.
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
It truly is a strange world. Take Pfizer, they announced they would be eliminating 8000 jobs (10% of workforce) yet they also just announced their intentions to take-over Wyeth for the grand sum of $68B in cash and shares stating that they money will be borrowed from banks and that a further 20,000 combined workforce jobs would go. A cost cutting exercise.[^] As this is a huge sum of money, and US Banks being cash strapped, is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks? But, Pfizer's announcements - is this not insensitive at this particularly time. H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
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Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion.
Oakman wrote:
What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
I agree completely with this sentiment. Fear Factor Fox News has been saying some rather despicable things lately.
Oakman wrote:
If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Obviously I agree with your point here. This is not a good thing. I'm not saying the US should be any different. I don't know what the EU, China or Mexico practices? I've not read anything about them with regards to protectionism.
Oakman wrote:
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses.
This being true, then I don't see anything wrong with making labor or products manufactured in other countries cost no more than here. If erasing the advantage of shipping work to other countries was done maybe the stamp of 'made in America' would mean what it used to. One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here. How do you reconcile that business issue?
wolfbinary wrote:
Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion
Try not to do that. You'll sleep better. ;)
wolfbinary wrote:
One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here
Goods will always be cheaper if they are made by serfs and slaves. At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced. When it was necessary to encourage South Africa to change it's ways, we stopped transacting with them. Even looking at this from a market-driven sense, if all the US workers are unemployed, it won't matter how cheaply goods can be manufactured, no-one will be buying them. Notice that, right now, some dealers are literally giving away two cars for the price of one - and still not selling them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane?
That's why it's called the soapbox. Debate, concerns, things like that, it's what some of us like to do with issues. Why bother coming to the forum then?:confused:
I suppose I was annoyed by the general moaning, and even though the causes of the mess we're in are quite obvious, Oakman still has to have a dig at socialism, blaming things on "neo-con and pseudo socialists" is a most meaningless phrase. Here in Europe socialism works quite well, it terrifys the fuck out of yanks because they've been brainwashed from an early age to fear. FEAR. A.
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wolfbinary wrote:
Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion
Try not to do that. You'll sleep better. ;)
wolfbinary wrote:
One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here
Goods will always be cheaper if they are made by serfs and slaves. At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced. When it was necessary to encourage South Africa to change it's ways, we stopped transacting with them. Even looking at this from a market-driven sense, if all the US workers are unemployed, it won't matter how cheaply goods can be manufactured, no-one will be buying them. Notice that, right now, some dealers are literally giving away two cars for the price of one - and still not selling them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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No, he jury rigged a Cranial Containment Vessel from some old girders, string, a toothpaste tube and a saucepan. Couple of bits of rubber tubing and he was ready to go!
------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson
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Dalek Dave wrote:
No, he jury rigged a Cranial Containment Vessel from some old girders, string, a toothpaste tube and a saucepan.
MacGyver!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
s'funny, when he was McGyver my missus didn't think much of him, by the time he was Colonel Jack O'Neill, she thought him hot! Men in Uniform I suppose.
------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson
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Oakman wrote:
At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced.
You traitor you. :-D
You are so fucking clueless, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your mother still ties your shoes for you. I have made the above point in SB many times and in many ways. Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to fuck it up. By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe. You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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You are so fucking clueless, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your mother still ties your shoes for you. I have made the above point in SB many times and in many ways. Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to fuck it up. By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe. You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to f*** it up.
Didn't see much micro-managing from the Bush regime and it still fucked up.
Oakman wrote:
By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe
Sigh. Get real.
Oakman wrote:
You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
You're starting to read like them. A.
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It truly is a strange world. Take Pfizer, they announced they would be eliminating 8000 jobs (10% of workforce) yet they also just announced their intentions to take-over Wyeth for the grand sum of $68B in cash and shares stating that they money will be borrowed from banks and that a further 20,000 combined workforce jobs would go. A cost cutting exercise.[^] As this is a huge sum of money, and US Banks being cash strapped, is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks? But, Pfizer's announcements - is this not insensitive at this particularly time. H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
Based on my observations of various layoff cycles by my employers since 1980, I would be willing to bet that NO H1B workers are furloughed. H1B is a crock of shit, and an affront to every American citizen. As Jon points out, it is a thinly disguised vehicle for obtaining cheap skilled labor, often at the expense of a qualified citizens job. It's not supposed to work that way, but every employer using H1B seems to have no qualms about ignoring the rules.