The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]
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Q. How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane? A. They switch the engines off and the whining continues.
Oakman wrote:
Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties
Don't quite know why you dragged socialism into that phrase, but you have got precisely what you voted for, TWICE with the neo-con Bush farce. Although very few DON'T suspect foul-play along the way re: vote rigging. A.
AndyKEnZ wrote:
How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane?
That's why it's called the soapbox. Debate, concerns, things like that, it's what some of us like to do with issues. Why bother coming to the forum then?:confused:
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wolfbinary wrote:
Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon?
Me? Flame??? No, the article I linked to didn't piss me off. But the paragraph about this not being a cyclical downturn in employment scared me. (Not for myself. These days, I don't work for a paycheck.) What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses. If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
scared me
and your not alone. I have friends in NY, 2 are unemployed (layed off recently) and 1 works and goes to school. I think her exact words were 'The US is going down'. She is actually looking for a job in europe because it doesn't look like they'll find any there soon.
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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It truly is a strange world. Take Pfizer, they announced they would be eliminating 8000 jobs (10% of workforce) yet they also just announced their intentions to take-over Wyeth for the grand sum of $68B in cash and shares stating that they money will be borrowed from banks and that a further 20,000 combined workforce jobs would go. A cost cutting exercise.[^] As this is a huge sum of money, and US Banks being cash strapped, is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks? But, Pfizer's announcements - is this not insensitive at this particularly time. H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
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Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion.
Oakman wrote:
What pisses me off is the absolute incompetence of both New York and Washington. Especially the ideologs who would rather see the US flushed down the toilet than have their favorite economic theory be shown not to be perfect.
I agree completely with this sentiment. Fear Factor Fox News has been saying some rather despicable things lately.
Oakman wrote:
If protectionism is wanting the U.S. worker to not have to live and work in third world, bond slave, conditions, then sobeit.
Obviously I agree with your point here. This is not a good thing. I'm not saying the US should be any different. I don't know what the EU, China or Mexico practices? I've not read anything about them with regards to protectionism.
Oakman wrote:
Why should the U.S. be any different? Do you believe the EU doesn't practice protectionism? China is an extremely protectionist country. Mexico won't let foreigners own businesses.
This being true, then I don't see anything wrong with making labor or products manufactured in other countries cost no more than here. If erasing the advantage of shipping work to other countries was done maybe the stamp of 'made in America' would mean what it used to. One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here. How do you reconcile that business issue?
wolfbinary wrote:
Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion
Try not to do that. You'll sleep better. ;)
wolfbinary wrote:
One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here
Goods will always be cheaper if they are made by serfs and slaves. At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced. When it was necessary to encourage South Africa to change it's ways, we stopped transacting with them. Even looking at this from a market-driven sense, if all the US workers are unemployed, it won't matter how cheaply goods can be manufactured, no-one will be buying them. Notice that, right now, some dealers are literally giving away two cars for the price of one - and still not selling them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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AndyKEnZ wrote:
How can you tell if Oakman has arrived on a plane?
That's why it's called the soapbox. Debate, concerns, things like that, it's what some of us like to do with issues. Why bother coming to the forum then?:confused:
I suppose I was annoyed by the general moaning, and even though the causes of the mess we're in are quite obvious, Oakman still has to have a dig at socialism, blaming things on "neo-con and pseudo socialists" is a most meaningless phrase. Here in Europe socialism works quite well, it terrifys the fuck out of yanks because they've been brainwashed from an early age to fear. FEAR. A.
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wolfbinary wrote:
Mostly I was thinking of people like Stan or Illion
Try not to do that. You'll sleep better. ;)
wolfbinary wrote:
One the flip side cheaper goods are what people want here
Goods will always be cheaper if they are made by serfs and slaves. At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced. When it was necessary to encourage South Africa to change it's ways, we stopped transacting with them. Even looking at this from a market-driven sense, if all the US workers are unemployed, it won't matter how cheaply goods can be manufactured, no-one will be buying them. Notice that, right now, some dealers are literally giving away two cars for the price of one - and still not selling them.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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No, he jury rigged a Cranial Containment Vessel from some old girders, string, a toothpaste tube and a saucepan. Couple of bits of rubber tubing and he was ready to go!
------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson
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Dalek Dave wrote:
No, he jury rigged a Cranial Containment Vessel from some old girders, string, a toothpaste tube and a saucepan.
MacGyver!
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
s'funny, when he was McGyver my missus didn't think much of him, by the time he was Colonel Jack O'Neill, she thought him hot! Men in Uniform I suppose.
------------------------------------ "Your manuscript is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." Dr Samuel Johnson
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Oakman wrote:
At a certain point, we need to say there are other considerations than just how cheaply something can be produced.
You traitor you. :-D
You are so fucking clueless, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your mother still ties your shoes for you. I have made the above point in SB many times and in many ways. Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to fuck it up. By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe. You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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You are so fucking clueless, I wouldn't be surprised to hear your mother still ties your shoes for you. I have made the above point in SB many times and in many ways. Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to fuck it up. By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe. You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Just as I have made the point that governments attempting to micromanage the economy only manage to f*** it up.
Didn't see much micro-managing from the Bush regime and it still fucked up.
Oakman wrote:
By the way there are no real socialist societies in Europe
Sigh. Get real.
Oakman wrote:
You have as bad a grasp on reality as Stan and Adnan.
You're starting to read like them. A.
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It truly is a strange world. Take Pfizer, they announced they would be eliminating 8000 jobs (10% of workforce) yet they also just announced their intentions to take-over Wyeth for the grand sum of $68B in cash and shares stating that they money will be borrowed from banks and that a further 20,000 combined workforce jobs would go. A cost cutting exercise.[^] As this is a huge sum of money, and US Banks being cash strapped, is this the kind of recovery your former President had in mind when bailing out the banks? But, Pfizer's announcements - is this not insensitive at this particularly time. H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
H1B's, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those losing their jobs would be them rather than your ordinary American worker.
Based on my observations of various layoff cycles by my employers since 1980, I would be willing to bet that NO H1B workers are furloughed. H1B is a crock of shit, and an affront to every American citizen. As Jon points out, it is a thinly disguised vehicle for obtaining cheap skilled labor, often at the expense of a qualified citizens job. It's not supposed to work that way, but every employer using H1B seems to have no qualms about ignoring the rules.
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
Not to be too picky, but:
Oakman wrote:
But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years?
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense? I think you mean the Fed permitted private industry to ship jobs overseas, don't you? If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Oakman wrote:
when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!"
wow, so you do support the South American (Chavez, Morales) approach. I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive. In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Trollslayer wrote:
H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
b.s. The majority of H1Bs that I worked with were neither better educated, nor smarter, nor more skilled than their American counterparts - in some cases, I watched as Americans were required to train their H1B replacements. The one advantage to the company of the H1B employee was cost. They were being paid from ten to thirty thousand less per year than the person who was now unemployed.
Trollslayer wrote:
When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
But you are not in the U.S. are you? Sharing your experience, though informative, shed no light for me on what is happening in this country. Indeed, from what you said and didn't say, I have to wonder if you have an equivalent of the H1B visa program in the U.K. FYI there are published studies demonstrating that the vast majority of H1Bs in this country - who can be nurses, lab techs, etc. as well as IT people - are paid less than the prevailing wage for the job in question.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
nurses
There is a big shortfall of nurses in the US. It still is so I think H1Bs are justified in some respects. I would agree with you on the IT jobs. It used to be that only good candidates got H1B sponsored. But these days it has become a scam (atleast in India), so some unqualified candidates with money and influence get H1B sponsored by a company. What's sad is that some really well qualified candidates can't get a job because their H1B can not not be processed. Many of the contracting companies (bulk of H1B) do keep a significant amount of cut as a result the salaries for the employees are less.
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I suppose I was annoyed by the general moaning, and even though the causes of the mess we're in are quite obvious, Oakman still has to have a dig at socialism, blaming things on "neo-con and pseudo socialists" is a most meaningless phrase. Here in Europe socialism works quite well, it terrifys the fuck out of yanks because they've been brainwashed from an early age to fear. FEAR. A.
I think you might be hypersensitive. And rude.
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Not to be too picky, but:
Oakman wrote:
But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years?
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense? I think you mean the Fed permitted private industry to ship jobs overseas, don't you? If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Oakman wrote:
when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!"
wow, so you do support the South American (Chavez, Morales) approach. I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive. In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
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Oakman wrote:
nurses
There is a big shortfall of nurses in the US. It still is so I think H1Bs are justified in some respects. I would agree with you on the IT jobs. It used to be that only good candidates got H1B sponsored. But these days it has become a scam (atleast in India), so some unqualified candidates with money and influence get H1B sponsored by a company. What's sad is that some really well qualified candidates can't get a job because their H1B can not not be processed. Many of the contracting companies (bulk of H1B) do keep a significant amount of cut as a result the salaries for the employees are less.
I've worked with 3 different Indian outsource companies in the past few years. I found it interesting that virtually none of them had IT degrees, most came from unrelated fields. Their senior developers were competent, but most of their underlings were not so much. Which was explained by the fact that so many were starting a new career for which they weren't trained. There were a lot of engineers from varying fields, so they were bright guys, they were just starting out in a field that was pretty new to them. I assumed with the IT boom there, it had just become much easier to get a programming job.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Many of the contracting companies (bulk of H1B) do keep a significant amount of cut as a result the salaries for the employees are less.
I've also heard that from several guys.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
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Not to be too picky, but:
Oakman wrote:
But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years?
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense? I think you mean the Fed permitted private industry to ship jobs overseas, don't you? If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Oakman wrote:
when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!"
wow, so you do support the South American (Chavez, Morales) approach. I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive. In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Then what we need to do is repeal the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution? They clearly violate the right of businesses to own slaves just like they do in India and China (yes, they are actually serfs, but the difference to the person involved is pretty minimal.)
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive.
Did you also find it repulsive when we embargoed Cuba?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Only the rich benefit from that argument. It's right up there with "Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right. We have had depressions without protectionism and we have had them with protectionism. Reading a little economic history, by the way, taught me that the most recent depression is always the one called "The Great Depression." We have every right to give tax-advantages and special treatment to countries that hire Americans and no reason to offer them to businesses that want to be Chinese in all but name.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
Rob Graham wrote:
We don't need protectionism
we agree.
Rob Graham wrote:
we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce.
subsidizing? the requires the expenditure of cash or credit.
Rob Graham wrote:
The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie.
I agree. I know good IT people stocking shelves in grocery stores. But whether we agree or disagree on these points the fact is private business is precisely that unless you want it nationalized, then we can piss and moan about how the governemt in doing business. My view (and, I've been on both sides of this argument at different times) is that we're competing in a global, not a local, economy and unless you want to delve into protectionist policies (restricting actual product imports) then a business will not survive and the very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product. This is even more probable when you consider software and/or entertainment, which can be purchased on the internet and delivered to your home or business without governmental influence or interference.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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We don't need protectionism, but we also don't need the federal goverment subsidizing the importation of cheap competition for US jobs by means of a special Visa program whose rules they are not willing or able to enforce. H1B is an egregious affront, and should be stopped immediately. It is not properly enforced, and has become nothing more than a back door for importing foreign skilled labor at the expense of US citizens. The myth that there aren't enough skilled US professionals to satisfy demand is nothing more than a lie. What is meant is there aren't enough at an entry level or lower salary. It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
Rob Graham wrote:
It is fast becoming a self fulfilling prophecy, however, as students observe what happens to parents and older friends and seek other professions where longevity is better.
True. I just recently advised a very bright nephew of mine to consider a career in engineering very carefully. I told him he really had to be willing to be on of the best in order to have a lucrative and long career. I am pretty sure he can do it; he is extremely bright but I just don't see the point until companies start thinking beyond the next two quarters again.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, which positions were outsourced? State Department? Defense
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products?
Then what we need to do is repeal the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution? They clearly violate the right of businesses to own slaves just like they do in India and China (yes, they are actually serfs, but the difference to the person involved is pretty minimal.)
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'd be fine with a criticism of private industry for not employing citizens but to say that the government "allowed" them is frankly repulsive.
Did you also find it repulsive when we embargoed Cuba?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
In the current environment we do not need protectionist policies, unless we want a repeat of he Great Depression.
Only the rich benefit from that argument. It's right up there with "Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right. We have had depressions without protectionism and we have had them with protectionism. Reading a little economic history, by the way, taught me that the most recent depression is always the one called "The Great Depression." We have every right to give tax-advantages and special treatment to countries that hire Americans and no reason to offer them to businesses that want to be Chinese in all but name.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
Have you taken a look at the number of contractors who are or have filled quasi-combat positons in Iraq?
are they foreigners or Americans? There's a difference.
Oakman wrote:
Mike Gaskey wrote: If so why shouldn't a business employ the lowest cost resource to build / support its products? Then what we need to do is ......
That is non-responsive.
Oakman wrote:
Only the rich benefit from that argument
along with the customers of the products and services.
Oakman wrote:
"Too big to fail" as one of the shibboleths of the right
Here we agree. We're propping up organizations that are cancerous that should be allowed to die.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.