The U.S. lost 50,000 jobs yesterday [modified]
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
Oakman wrote:
when our government has increased H1B visas to almost a million per year
Are you sure about this numbers? AFAK the H1B visas was 60K for the last year. For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million. This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad. The problem with fake programmers, using fake companies to obtain visas, which lower the quality in the IT sector, is other cattle of fish.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
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Oakman wrote:
when our government has increased H1B visas to almost a million per year
Are you sure about this numbers? AFAK the H1B visas was 60K for the last year. For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million. This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad. The problem with fake programmers, using fake companies to obtain visas, which lower the quality in the IT sector, is other cattle of fish.
The narrow specialist in the broad sense of the word is a complete idiot in the narrow sense of the word. Advertise here – minimum three posts per day are guaranteed.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
Are you sure about this numbers?
I screwed up. My fingers added "per year," when my brain was out getting coffee. :-O It's not a million a year, it's a million total. This figure was a guesstimate but intended to be conservative. It counts the three years when the cap was 195,000 and the two years when the caop was around 110,000 as well as accounting for the 65,000 being allowed in every year now and the fact that all H1Bs working for non-profits or research facilities are not counted in the cap -- nor are the first 20,000 H1Bs with master's degrees, even if they work for a profit making company.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
For example this means 200 new workers every year in a big city with population of one million.
What does the size of the city have to do with anything? By the way, there are only 8 cities in the US with a population of a million or nore, so your 200 per city leaves quite a few H1bs unaccounted for.
Deyan Georgiev wrote:
This will not affect the labor market in any manner – good or bad.
Adding 100,000 - 300,000 people every year for the last ten years has, imho, definitely lowered the number of American workers in IT, the earnings of those Americans who are still working in IT and the attractiveness of IT as a profession for college students.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
Yeah, all of this offshoring is sickening. The reasoning is a little weird. Who will be able to buy those foreign products when so many american people will have lost their jobs? This is all about finding an optimum. Some offshoring might help lower the prices, but too much offshoring is just killing people's way of life. Concerning the H1Bs, I think it is better to import workers and keep projects locally rather than offshoring everything. In the second case, many jobs are lost, including non-skilled jobs, as people usually work in teams. I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens. They might have less opportunities (for example, they do not get access to jobs where a security clearance is required), but there are prevailing wages, so the jobs just cannot be badly paid. Here is a quote from Obama, and I think this is very well put: http://pradeepc.net/blog/?p=193[^] Concerning massive layoffs and H1Bs? Well I think the country is acting according to its best interests, so that would make perfect sense to lay off visa holders first. A laid off H1B visa holder has ten days to leave the country, while a citizen will register for unemployment...
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In the UK when it comes to highly skilled jobs it's down to lack - too many people are doing any kind of degree at university (esp. the 'easy' ones like media studies) because apparently when you have a degree you are owed a nice job... X|
Visit http://www.notreadytogiveup.com/[^] and do something special today.
Trollslayer wrote:
apparently when you have a degree you are owed a nice job...
Yeah... Where'd that attitude come from? You know what you call an engineering student who can't do math? Business major.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Roger Wright wrote:
It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
Sadly true, so what about Nish's first job?
Bar fomos edo pariyart gedeem, agreo eo dranem abal edyero eyrem kalm kareore
That's his story to tell, if he chooses to, not mine. I'm just delighted to see that things have improved for him tremendously. :-D
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Trollslayer wrote:
H1B visas are required because there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
b.s. The majority of H1Bs that I worked with were neither better educated, nor smarter, nor more skilled than their American counterparts - in some cases, I watched as Americans were required to train their H1B replacements. The one advantage to the company of the H1B employee was cost. They were being paid from ten to thirty thousand less per year than the person who was now unemployed.
Trollslayer wrote:
When we interview engineers from abroad it is very expensive because of travel costs for interviews etc. They end up on the same salary as everyone else so it's not a cost cutting measure.
But you are not in the U.S. are you? Sharing your experience, though informative, shed no light for me on what is happening in this country. Indeed, from what you said and didn't say, I have to wonder if you have an equivalent of the H1B visa program in the U.K. FYI there are published studies demonstrating that the vast majority of H1Bs in this country - who can be nurses, lab techs, etc. as well as IT people - are paid less than the prevailing wage for the job in question.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
Oakman wrote:
The majority of H1Bs that I worked with were neither better educated, nor smarter, nor more skilled than their American counterparts
And the side effect, even if you believe the part about importing the best and brightest talent, is the ones that stay and get citizenship (or maybe only a green card is required?) get to sponsor a whole raft of their relatives to join them under the guise of "family reunification".
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Trollslayer wrote:
apparently when you have a degree you are owed a nice job...
Yeah... Where'd that attitude come from? You know what you call an engineering student who can't do math? Business major.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Roger Wright wrote:
You know what you call an engineering student who can't do math? Business major.
When I was starting to study engineering, I was told it was Pre Phys Ed. At freshman orientation they got all 900 freshman engineering majors in a big lecture hall and told us that the person sitting on either side of us wouldn't be there when we graduated. I think it was more like two thirds.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Roger Wright wrote:
You know what you call an engineering student who can't do math? Business major.
When I was starting to study engineering, I was told it was Pre Phys Ed. At freshman orientation they got all 900 freshman engineering majors in a big lecture hall and told us that the person sitting on either side of us wouldn't be there when we graduated. I think it was more like two thirds.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
Yep, the washout rate at my school in engineering was at least 60 percent and the washouts in physics was about the same.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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Yeah, all of this offshoring is sickening. The reasoning is a little weird. Who will be able to buy those foreign products when so many american people will have lost their jobs? This is all about finding an optimum. Some offshoring might help lower the prices, but too much offshoring is just killing people's way of life. Concerning the H1Bs, I think it is better to import workers and keep projects locally rather than offshoring everything. In the second case, many jobs are lost, including non-skilled jobs, as people usually work in teams. I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens. They might have less opportunities (for example, they do not get access to jobs where a security clearance is required), but there are prevailing wages, so the jobs just cannot be badly paid. Here is a quote from Obama, and I think this is very well put: http://pradeepc.net/blog/?p=193[^] Concerning massive layoffs and H1Bs? Well I think the country is acting according to its best interests, so that would make perfect sense to lay off visa holders first. A laid off H1B visa holder has ten days to leave the country, while a citizen will register for unemployment...
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens.
You are wrong. So wrong, you couldn't get right if you started now and worked at it through the night.
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
Concerning the H1Bs, I think it is better to import workers and keep projects locally rather than offshoring everything.
If there are Americans who can do the job - and regardless of what Obama says, there are plenty of 'em - the only reason it would be better is because they are cheaper. In many cases the same people who are brought over here for "seasoning" then return to their homeland and become outsource labor.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Yeah, all of this offshoring is sickening. The reasoning is a little weird. Who will be able to buy those foreign products when so many american people will have lost their jobs? This is all about finding an optimum. Some offshoring might help lower the prices, but too much offshoring is just killing people's way of life. Concerning the H1Bs, I think it is better to import workers and keep projects locally rather than offshoring everything. In the second case, many jobs are lost, including non-skilled jobs, as people usually work in teams. I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens. They might have less opportunities (for example, they do not get access to jobs where a security clearance is required), but there are prevailing wages, so the jobs just cannot be badly paid. Here is a quote from Obama, and I think this is very well put: http://pradeepc.net/blog/?p=193[^] Concerning massive layoffs and H1Bs? Well I think the country is acting according to its best interests, so that would make perfect sense to lay off visa holders first. A laid off H1B visa holder has ten days to leave the country, while a citizen will register for unemployment...
Pierre Leclercq wrote:
I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens. They might have less opportunities (for example, they do not get access to jobs where a security clearance is required), but there are prevailing wages, so the jobs just cannot be badly paid.
Please. I've worked with so many that were making < 60% of what I did and where willing/made/coerced to work 12+ hours a day for 7 days a week while bunking up 4 or 5 to a single apartment. It was sickening. These weren't just a little sweat shops; I've worked for the likes of TI, Novellus Semiconductor and, Bear Sterns.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
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I say that is is a subsidy because the government creates special rules that modify the normal immigration practices to specifically allow the importation of foreign job competition. There is no compensating trade advantage given by the beneficiaries, and the rule benefits US companies at the expense of it;s own citizens when there is no demonstrated need. It creates an artificial competition for US jobs that should not be there, and is actually an abuse of the immigrants, who end up working for what is often close to subsistence wages (this is particularly true on the West coast - Silicon valley is an exorbitantly expensive place to live). I would have no objection if there were a real, as advertised, lack of skilled candidates available, and if the rules on pay scales (they are not supposed to get paid below market, but are) were actually enforced, but they are not. Since the Fed creates an artificially priced l;abor supply (while claiming not to), it amounts to a subsidy. I would only argue for either enforce the real rules on need and pay, or terminate the special visa program. Let American job candidates compete on a level playing field (and require businesses to do the same). {edit}
Mike Gaskey wrote:
he very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product.
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price? {/edit}
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:56 AM
Rob Graham wrote:
this is particularly true on the West coast - Silicon valley is an exorbitantly expensive place to live
And over 1/3 of the residents here are foreign born. Makes driving...interesting, too.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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Pierre Leclercq wrote:
I am not under the impression H1B holders are less paid than US citizens. They might have less opportunities (for example, they do not get access to jobs where a security clearance is required), but there are prevailing wages, so the jobs just cannot be badly paid.
Please. I've worked with so many that were making < 60% of what I did and where willing/made/coerced to work 12+ hours a day for 7 days a week while bunking up 4 or 5 to a single apartment. It was sickening. These weren't just a little sweat shops; I've worked for the likes of TI, Novellus Semiconductor and, Bear Sterns.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
These weren't just a little sweat shops; I've worked for the likes of TI, Novellus Semiconductor and, Bear Sterns.
Companies that size hire consultants to help them get around the H1B requirements. "Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified and interested U.S. worker" [^] As the article says, if there were a shortage of qualified Americans, would people be able to make a living showing companies how to avoid even interviewing them?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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In a single day, on Jan. 26, at least 50,000 new layoffs were announced at companies as varied as telecom giant Sprint Nextel, construction equipment maker Caterpillar, semiconductor manufacturer Texas Instruments, and pharmaceutical house Pfizer.[^] According to the above linked article, economists are now saying that the loss of jobs we have been seeing since the spring is not a cyclical fluctuation, it is a permanent change. But is that a surprise, when our government has been outsourcing millions of jobs for the past twenty years? Neocons and pseudo-socialists alike have been preaching the joys of a so-called service economy while signing NAFTA and CAFTA (and Shaft-yah) treaties that have shipped thousands of jobs to Mexico and the rest of Central and South America. Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products. Companies have actually been given tax breaks for closing factories in the U.S. and shipping jobs wholesale to the far east. Is it any wonder that we are seeing fewer and fewer people studying hi-tech fields in college, when companies are allowed to outsouce entire departments to folks who then post "PLZ HLP!" messages on CP; when our government has increased H1B visas working in this country to almost a million, allowing these same people to come here and take jobs at a vastly reduced salary, replacing many Americans? (Microsoft, one of the top ten employers of H1B's recently terminated 1,500 people and plans to fire 3,500 more - mot of them American-born as far as Senator Grassley can determine.) Why is anyone surprised that we are seeing more and more people sickened with e-coli infections when the vast majority of our meat processing plants and framing is being people who live in a society where washing one's hands is something to be done once a week whether it's needed or not? Edit/ Corrected a brain fart where I said one million H1Bs visa per year, when I meant one million total in this country. /Edit
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified
Yeah, but I just got a lot of work outsourced to me from India. It is a global economy, and there is nothing anyone can do about it aside from simply killing it and going back to the 15th century. If we had not lowered trade barriers the same problems would have become manifest in some other way. There is no solution, simple, complex or otherwise. The only issue is what kind of a global economy do we want. Socialist, or free market? If we go with free markets, humanity has a future, if we go with socialism, it does not.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Yeah, but I just got a lot of work outsourced to me from India. It is a global economy, and there is nothing anyone can do about it aside from simply killing it and going back to the 15th century. If we had not lowered trade barriers the same problems would have become manifest in some other way. There is no solution, simple, complex or otherwise. The only issue is what kind of a global economy do we want. Socialist, or free market? If we go with free markets, humanity has a future, if we go with socialism, it does not.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Yeah, but I just got a lot of work outsourced to me from India
Selling car parts?
Stan Shannon wrote:
If we go with free markets, humanity has a future, if we go with socialism, it does not.
Like China intends on giving you a vote.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
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Trollslayer wrote:
there is a massive shortage of good engineers in the US.
That's funny; there was no shortage of us back in the 90s when a few hundred thousand of us got laid off, but we've all been replaced by cheaper imports. The people who had the skill to create the space program and design the hardware used by the military now work at Walmart, or have since died too broke to ever hope for retirement. I don't see any evidence of a shortage today, either, but I see lots of people who weren't born here working jobs at lower salaries than their American peers. Maybe that's why American kids are avoiding engineering studies like the plague? It may be that your company uses H1-B visas to secure special skills that aren't readily available in the market, but the vast majority of US firms use them only to cut costs or squeeze 80 hour weeks out of people who don't know any better. Ask Nish about his first US job sometime...
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
Those on H1Bs can't work for defense companies --- they simply cannot get a secret (as a minimum) clearance. The rules are that you must be an American citizen --- green cards don't help with that!
AF Pilot
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I say that is is a subsidy because the government creates special rules that modify the normal immigration practices to specifically allow the importation of foreign job competition. There is no compensating trade advantage given by the beneficiaries, and the rule benefits US companies at the expense of it;s own citizens when there is no demonstrated need. It creates an artificial competition for US jobs that should not be there, and is actually an abuse of the immigrants, who end up working for what is often close to subsistence wages (this is particularly true on the West coast - Silicon valley is an exorbitantly expensive place to live). I would have no objection if there were a real, as advertised, lack of skilled candidates available, and if the rules on pay scales (they are not supposed to get paid below market, but are) were actually enforced, but they are not. Since the Fed creates an artificially priced l;abor supply (while claiming not to), it amounts to a subsidy. I would only argue for either enforce the real rules on need and pay, or terminate the special visa program. Let American job candidates compete on a level playing field (and require businesses to do the same). {edit}
Mike Gaskey wrote:
he very same jobs we're discussing will be lost anyway but in this case not only will the jobs be lost but so will the corporate revenue, which will go to the company/nation producing the lower cost product.
What the heck happened to the idea of competing on quality and capability instead of just price? {/edit}
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:56 AM
And who created the rules and laws regarding H1B visas? Why our good old Senators and Representatives (both stinking parties, BTW). Of course they didn't do it for free. I wonder how much it cost various companies and lobbying groups to get enough support (read MONEY) to Congress to get this farce passed. Congress has long been about money --- they don't really give a good goddamn about this country. They would sell us all for the right price.
AF Pilot
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Not to set off a flame at me, but is this article what really has you pissed off Jon? I've been wondering about the outsourcing for a while, now and what happens when there isn't any 3rd world country to send the work too. When there isn't, what then? Are goods and services are artificially under priced then? Whether its food or electronics people don't know where there stuff comes from or care. They just want it cheap and plentiful. For example a girlfriend of a coworker of mine a while back didn't know that prunes are dried out plums and she's a nurse. Go figure. Jessica Simpson thought 'Chicken of the Sea' was real chicken and not fish. It reminds me of the movie Idiocracy. If the majority of Americans don't want the bank bailout money to be released again shouldn't that be the end of it? Isn't that how democracy should work?
Oakman wrote:
Successive administrations have gleefully lowered trade barriers to cheaper goods from Asia while not insisting on quid pro quos that might have provided markets for some American products
Isn't doing what you're implying protectionism?
wolfbinary wrote:
Isn't that how democracy should work?
We're not a Democracy. We're a Republic with a severe case of electile dysfunction.
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Those on H1Bs can't work for defense companies --- they simply cannot get a secret (as a minimum) clearance. The rules are that you must be an American citizen --- green cards don't help with that!
AF Pilot
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
are they foreigners or Americans? There's a difference.
Little, from your viewpoint, or mine. But for the Captain or Major who is passed over for promotion (3 times and you're out) because the men he would be commanding are all contractors, there probably isn't. And no, he probably won't be thrilled to start over as a buck sergeant in Blackwater.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
That is non-responsive
Not from my point of view. Unrestrained capitalism works best in a society where it can own its workers, ideally being able to dispose of them like used kleenex when they are not needed. This is, almost without exception, why so many manufacturing jobs have been moved to Mexico. It follows, as the night the day, that we should bring back slavery in this country in order to compete with foreign economies, doesn't it?
Mike Gaskey wrote:
along with the customers of the products and services.
There ain't none, once everybody who isn't rich, is unemployed.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Here we agree. We're propping up organizations that are cancerous that should be allowed to die.
We should probably start with the Senate.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface
modified on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:35 PM
Oakman wrote:
Unrestrained capitalism works best in a society where it can own its workers, ideally being able to dispose of them like used kleenex when they are not needed.
What people like Stan and Mike don't seem to remember that corporations are a legal invention. They're granted a right to exist because people believe that corporations and their limited liability financially to the owners is an advantage to society. It's not a license to do whatever they please in the name of profit. And foreign corporations operating here are purely at our whim.
Oakman wrote:
This is, almost without exception, why so many manufacturing jobs have been moved to Mexico.
What's amazing is that so many companies skip Mexico with its cheap labor pool and is in our own backyard for going to China and having to ship products all the way across the Pacific. Is a Mexican really that much more expensive?
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke