The first thing I’d do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act. That’s the first thing I’d do

[Oakman]

Ka?l wrote:

As often, it's somebody that will never ever have to carry a child who has a firm opinion on that subject.

Or someone who has never raised a child who has a firm opinion on how best a government should regulate the relationship of parent and child?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[KaRl]

Are you a woman?

When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?

Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[Oakman]

Ka?l wrote:

Are you a woman?

I'm a parent. I guess you're afraid to admit that you aren't.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

wolfbinary wrote:

What are you guys going to do about it if it passes and becomes law?

You don't understand. Most doctors oppose this law because of what could happen to them if parents discovered their child had been operated on without their consent.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[KaRl]

Oakman wrote:

I'm a parent.

So I guess you're not, but you have nonetheless a firm opinion of what they can do with their own body. Very contistent.

Oakman wrote:

I guess you're afraid to admit that you aren't.

If you think I care about what you believe or not, you're misguided.

Society is composed of two great classes, those that have more dinners than appetite, and those who have more appetite than dinners Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[Oakman]

Ka?l wrote:

So I guess you're not, but you have nonetheless a firm opinion of what they can do with their own body.

Yopu need to take remdial reading. Nowhere in this entire discussion have I said anything about what an adult woman can otr should do about aborting.

Ka?l wrote:

If you think I care about what you believe or not, you're misguided.

Oh, it's not a belief. I know you aren't. You are an opinionated kid with so little experience of the real world that you don't even know what you don't know.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Synaptrik]

So, you are saying that parents don't have a right to know their young child is being operated on, let alone require consent? Why such a special case to abortion? If a child breaks their arm at school, why notify the parents and get a consent form signed? Another point, is the child aware of the rights they sign away when they have to sign forms at the hospital excusing mistakes? We had to sign one of those for my wife's hysterectomy. I support free choice. But in this case in my opinion it has to be with the parents consent and knowledge. That is just wrong.

This statement is false

[KaRl]

Synaptrik wrote:

Why such a special case to abortion?

You don't see the difference between breaking one's arm and becoming pregnant? If your daughter comes and say 'I broke myself a finger', that's the same than if she says 'i'm pregnant'?

Synaptrik wrote:

Another point, is the child aware of the rights they sign away when they have to sign forms at the hospital excusing mistakes?

That kind of things should not exist. Hospitals have to deal with their responsibilities, as judges have to dismiss extravagant cases.

Synaptrik wrote:

But in this case in my opinion it has to be with the parents consent and knowledge.

So it is to the parents to decide if the girl has to keep or not the embryo, to become a mother or not?

The most wasted of all days is that on which one has not laughed Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[KaRl]

Oakman wrote:

Nowhere in this entire discussion have I said anything about what an adult woman can otr should do about aborting.

You just signed a petition created by the "Americans United for Life" meant to block any federal law authorizing abortion. That's make you someone pro-abortion, of course...

Oakman wrote:

I know you aren't

That's for sure, you are sure to know many things.

When the pitcher falls upon the stone, woe unto the pitcher, when the stone falls upon the pitcher, woe unto the pitcher : whatever befalls, woe unto the pitcher

Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[Synaptrik]

Are you a woman Karl? And please, for all answer if you're a parent.

This statement is false

[MrPlankton]

Ka?l wrote:

As often, it's somebody that will never ever have to carry a child who has a firm opinion on that subject.

MrPlankton

Mexican boy: Viene la tormenta! Sarah Connor: What did he just say? Gas Station Attendant: He said there's a storm coming Sarah Connor: [sighs] I know.

[KaRl]

Synaptrik wrote:

Are you a woman Karl?

No, that's why I don't think myself compelled to impose my choice about what they can do with their bodies.

Synaptrik wrote:

And please, for all answer if you're a parent.

Why? It is none of your business.

When they kick at your front door How you gonna come? With your hands on your head Or on the trigger of your gun?

Fold with us! ¤ flickr

[Synaptrik]

I don't see a difference with regards to a parent's right. As a parent its still my responsibility to care for the child. Maybe the best thing would be to keep it, maybe the best thing would be to abort. I support Freedom of Choice by the way. I just don't support removing parents from the equation.

Ka?l wrote:

That kind of things should not exist. Hospitals have to deal with their responsibilities, as judges have to dismiss extravagant cases.

I don't live in shoulda woulda coulda ville.

Ka?l wrote:

So it is to the parents to decide if the girl has to keep or not the embryo, to become a mother or not?

It is the parents RESPONSIBILITY to care for their child. You are suggesting that that is special cased here. I disagree. It is up to them to discuss it and make their decision. Now in the case where the child has a legitimate reason to abort and the parents disagree allow a fast track petition to a court and let the court decide. But don't remove them altogether.

This statement is false

[Synaptrik]

Ka?l wrote:

No, that's why I don't think myself compelled to impose my choice about what they can do with their bodies.

I didn't suggest you do:

Further up the thread Ka?l wrote:

As often, it's somebody that will never ever have to carry a child who has a firm opinion on that subject.

You express a firm opinion on the subject.

This statement is false

[BoneSoft]

Ka?l wrote:

You don't see the difference between breaking one's arm and becoming pregnant?

Yes. Nobody ever died from having a broken arm fixed.

---

Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

[Oakman]

Ka?l wrote:

You don't see the difference between breaking one's arm and becoming pregnant? If your daughter comes and say 'I broke myself a finger', that's the same than if she says 'i'm pregnant'?

Of course not. If she hid the fact of a broken finger, it wouldn't create the possibility of medical complication ocurring in the middle of the night that she would also attempt to hide from her parents - until it was too late.

Ka?l wrote:

That kind of things should not exist

You use the word, "should," a lot. You don't think it makes any difference in the real world, do you?

Ka?l wrote:

So it is to the parents to decide if the girl has to keep or not the embryo, to become a mother or not?

Hard for you to accept as it may be, adults who have known and cared for the girl all of her life and who would likely die to protect her from harm are more capable of making rational decisions about a child's future than a twelve year old whose brain has not yet matured. Before you start, I agaree. Of course there are exceptions just as the race is not always to the swift - but that's the way to bet.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

First of all, not every abortion is surgical, as we've already discussed - early abortions (< 7wks) are medical with mifepristone, methotrexate, etc. Remove barriers to abortion and more of them are earlier, more of them are medical. Secondly, all pediatricians deal with the situation of conflicting needs and interests between the patient and their parents on a daily basis. - "Why didn't you tell me you were prescribing birth control." - "How dare you give my child a blood transfusion against my religious wishes." - "I'm not letting you do chemo on them, it's unnatural." - "How dare you call child services on me, I don't abuse my kid." I expect you're only willing to consider the down side, ostensibly coming from the parent point of view, but removing mandantory parental informing laws isn't a black and white issue. Seeing a 12-13 year old who is pregnant? The first concern should always be abuse. You think a 12-13 year old is going to be more likely or less likely to come in and talk about it if they KNOW FOR SURE that the doctor is going to report to their parents if they request an abortion? Great, that's what a vulnerable population needs, more barriers and reasons to mistrust authority figures. Furthermore, the more mandatory laws there are for reporting, the less freedom a doctor has to work within doctor-patient confidentiality, and for doctors, that is generally a Bad Thing(TM). Mandatory reporting laws is a thorny ethical debate, and to imply it's as simple as doctors wanting to avoid lawsuits or confrontations is pretty fucking offensive.

- F

[Oakman]

Fisticuffs wrote:

First of all, not every abortion is surgical, as we've already discussed - early abortions (< 7wks) are medical with mifepristone, methotrexate, etc.

And the great majority of these are performed on adults. Kids either don't think anything of a single missed period, and when/if they suspect they are pregnant practice denial until their condition begins to show, sometime during the second trimester. Do you think that a girl who believed that she wouldn't get prenant because it was her first sexual experience is going to be sophisticated to use even a home pregnancy test in the first seven week???

Fisticuffs wrote:

I expect you're only willing to consider the down side,

Be careful what you expect, you might not get it. I spent a couple of years as the citizen representative on a three-person omsbundman team in and around Springfield, Mass., working with foster children. I am well -- sickeningly -- aware of the horrors that some biological (and/or step) parents inflict on their kids. I'm also equally aware of the evils that children perpetrate upon each other, sometimes without realising what they are doing. Equally I am aware of all the times it is another adult - minister, teacher -- even pediatrician who preys on the kids.

Fisticuffs wrote:

The first concern should always be abuse.

It is a primary concern, of course. But it is also the easy answer that plenty of very officious bureacrats use to screw up the lives of normal loving citizens who thought they still had some rights. However, your objection is a red herring. Most of the parental notification and consent laws with which I am familiar contain exceptions for any suspected parental child abuse.

Fisticuffs wrote:

Furthermore, the more mandatory laws there are for reporting, the less freedom a doctor has to work within doctor-patient confidentiality, and for doctors, that is generally a Bad Thing(TM).

Most doctors in the kind of drive-thru clinics that Planned Parenthood runs, hardly see their patients. The details of the case are usually determined by a non-medical person, who refers the client on to a nurse practitioner or RN who provides what counseling the girls gets. The girl is prepped and sedated before she sees the doctor. The doctor, by the way, can be an Osteopath in some states.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

They can handle their lack of freedom (possibly taking solace in the size of their year income) quite well when it comes to any other procedure.

Yeah, it's all about the money, you prick. :rolleyes: Seriously, as this is your response to my primary point (i.e. don't deign to tell me why doctors wouldn't support mandantory reporting laws), and considering that the rest of your post is all of the same broad strokes "Jon knows more about how kids, planned parenthood, doctors, lawyers, politicians think and act than they do because OMG LIFE EXPERIENCE" then I haven't the slightest inclination to correct any of it; i'm sure you would continue to pick the most banal points to disagree on because you have some sort of ego stick up your ass about your overwhelming knowledge of medical ethics and procedure. Go sign some more online petitions.

- F

[Oakman]

Did you enjoy your hissy fit? My son used to throw them, too - until he was about ten. Then he started to grow up. I wish you luck in doing the same.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.