Oh goody! More 'stimulus' surprises!
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
That's not *quite* how it works when adopted practically. You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
EliottA wrote:
That's not *quite* how it works when adopted practically. You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
realize that I said, ultimately.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
That's not *quite* how it works when adopted practically. You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
EliottA wrote:
You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
Then why is it taking two years for a friend of mine in Nova Scotia to get scheduled for an MRI?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now? And that the argument that a fat wallet is the best determiner of "benefit to society" has a couple of holes in it?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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EliottA wrote:
You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
Then why is it taking two years for a friend of mine in Nova Scotia to get scheduled for an MRI?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Hey, when I broke my wrist and all my fingers, I went to the hospital, they did all the tests and xrays immediately. Diagnosed my with temporary arthritis (septic or something) and had me in a specialized cast within a few hours. I paid nothing, I saw more then a couple of doctors and had to stay overnight, with consistent care and checkups from doctors. Never mind the pain medication needed from crushing a bone into powder. All this for the price of free, no wait no nothing. If you're friend is waiting 2 years for an MRI I don't know why, but no one in Montreal has those types of delays.
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EliottA wrote:
That's not *quite* how it works when adopted practically. You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
realize that I said, ultimately.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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EliottA wrote:
You know, in Canada that's not how it works at all.
Then why is it taking two years for a friend of mine in Nova Scotia to get scheduled for an MRI?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
I'd rather wait two years for a free MRI then work for 2 years to afford it. (assuming that your time line is accurate, which is doubtful considering the personal experiences I've had, and nevermind the experiences of the people around me.) Most Canadians will complain about health care, that's in the nature of people to complain. But when the buck stops, our health care is free and stellar and we wouldn't have it any other way. Sure as hell wouldn't have it the way the US does.
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Britain has been utilizing state-ran health care for free since the 1940's. Umm, when does this ultimately kick in again??
EliottA wrote:
Britain has been utilizing state-ran health care for free since the 1940's. Umm, when does this ultimately kick in again??
I would content it has already started, if I needed an MRI in Canada or the UK today: when can I have it done? In the USA, that would be this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now? And that the argument that a fat wallet is the best determiner of "benefit to society" has a couple of holes in it?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Oakman wrote:
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now?
Nope.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Bob Parks: Pelosi's Fuzzy Math[^]
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EliottA wrote:
Britain has been utilizing state-ran health care for free since the 1940's. Umm, when does this ultimately kick in again??
I would content it has already started, if I needed an MRI in Canada or the UK today: when can I have it done? In the USA, that would be this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Hey, when I broke my wrist and all my fingers, I went to the hospital, they did all the tests and xrays immediately. Diagnosed my with temporary arthritis (septic or something) and had me in a specialized cast within a few hours. I paid nothing, I saw more then a couple of doctors and had to stay overnight, with consistent care and checkups from doctors. Never mind the pain medication needed from crushing a bone into powder. All this for the price of free, no wait no nothing. If you're friend is waiting 2 years for an MRI I don't know why, but no one in Montreal has those types of delays.
EliottA wrote:
but no one in Montreal has those types of delays.
Maybe not, but Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province's population) can't find family physicians. Health officials in one Nova Scotia community actually resorted to a lottery to determine who'd get a doctor's appointment.[^] which was written by a Canadian ex-pat who also describe an emergency room he went into (as an intern) like this: "Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care." I am not tyring to bait you. I think there are serious problems with the US healthcare system that he need to solve. But while many of my Canadian acquaintances strongly defend the healthcare system of your country in the abstract, they also all have scare stories and it's too easy to find news coverage from Canada that talks about delays to believe that there isn't a problem north of the border, too.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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EliottA wrote:
but no one in Montreal has those types of delays.
Maybe not, but Government researchers now note that more than 1.5 million Ontarians (or 12% of that province's population) can't find family physicians. Health officials in one Nova Scotia community actually resorted to a lottery to determine who'd get a doctor's appointment.[^] which was written by a Canadian ex-pat who also describe an emergency room he went into (as an intern) like this: "Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care." I am not tyring to bait you. I think there are serious problems with the US healthcare system that he need to solve. But while many of my Canadian acquaintances strongly defend the healthcare system of your country in the abstract, they also all have scare stories and it's too easy to find news coverage from Canada that talks about delays to believe that there isn't a problem north of the border, too.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
No matter which system, horror stories are going to come up. The difference is equating which system is better then general overall health care, and since you brought it up, why not tally up all those horror stories. Let's not forget that 1 out of every 10 children in the US are in the poverty zone, whilst that number climbs for the amount of children without health care at all. It all comes down to this, if you need heart surgery or a bypass, and you don't have medical insurance (never mind battling with an insurer to get the money to get the surgery) how much money do you need to have *when you enter* the hospital, never mind how much you will need when you leave. In Canada, the answer is 0 and 0. And you get that treatment same day. While you think of the American answer,
Oakman wrote:
t's too easy to find news coverage from Canada that talks about delays...
Yep Delays. You might wait a day or a week. Whatever, those stories as many otherwise are typically grossly over exaggerated or extremely rare. A small community doesn't have enough general practitioners, I don't have one here in Montreal. Now in this city, a dense populated city doctors aren't short. You go to a doctors office, you sit and wait a half hour and you see a doctor. I vaguely recall during this summer 2 distinct incidents of people sitting in a waiting room, dying and then left there unattended for some couple of hours... That shit NEVER happens in Montreal. The only question shouldn't be about state-ran health care, it should be about how the hell your populous sits there while that happens and then doesn't force change.
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L'il fool, I've started playing the same game that you fools play. I suspect that eventutally others will get tired of the behavior of you "community" kiddies and will join me in this effort to turn this Sandbox back into a Soapbox. I can afford to be patient.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Of course you realize that universal healthcare ultimately must also ration the care, deciding who lives and who dies for the greater benefit of society.
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now? And that the argument that a fat wallet is the best determiner of "benefit to society" has a couple of holes in it?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
Last answer was too flip.
Oakman wrote:
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now?
Nope. If you have a health insurance policy (or certificate of coverage if group insurance) then you're entitled to the care covered by your contract (or master contract, if group). The only decisions made then are: Individual insurance: was the condition pre-existing? If so, it isn't covered unless the contractually stipulated time period (usually a year if it isn't ridered) has expired. If it is group coverage, then there's no pre-ex considerations. Is the treatment medically necessary: a decision the health insurance company makes based on AMA guidelines. For example, you determine you want a surgical procedure to reduce the size of your tits. That reduction isn't medically necessary and will not be covered. Is the treament experimental: if so, it will not be coveed. For example, you have cancer and your doctor want to take a turkey baster full of jalepeno extract and shoot it up you behind. This is an unproven treatment and coverage will be denied. === Additionally, in some regards you're correct. All of the above presumes you have insurance coverage and many don't. So in some regards, if your wallet is thin a rationing decision has been made. You, however, are the one who made it either at a tender age when you decided that making babies in the back seat of someone's car was much more fun than worrying about grades, or, when you decided that the hot rod you bought was a better investment than health insurance. === Even more additionally, rationing is done if you're a part of a government program. Medicaid or Medicare rations out the wahzoo, because these are governemt programs and are limited by: the doctors who'll be willing to play government games and/or the limited resources of tax payers. === Bottom line, the real rationing happens when you're in a government run program, not the free market.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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L'il fool, I've started playing the same game that you fools play. I suspect that eventutally others will get tired of the behavior of you "community" kiddies and will join me in this effort to turn this Sandbox back into a Soapbox. I can afford to be patient.
I have yet to see somebody else apart from you repeatedly post messages devoid of content apart from a link, and who univotes everybody who attempts to have a discussion. Don't think I didn't notice the nice grey colour you sent my post, by the way. Incidentally, the only way the Sandbox can be turned back into the Soapbox is by wiping out every one of your posts. I would explain, but I don't plan to waste my time. I have OSDev to do
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For us, you'd need to have an MRI on your head to sit there and justify paying for it. A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
EliottA wrote:
A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
pure bullshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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EliottA wrote:
A governments responsibility is to the people; that especially should include and highlight their health.
pure bullshit.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I have yet to see somebody else apart from you repeatedly post messages devoid of content apart from a link, and who univotes everybody who attempts to have a discussion. Don't think I didn't notice the nice grey colour you sent my post, by the way. Incidentally, the only way the Sandbox can be turned back into the Soapbox is by wiping out every one of your posts. I would explain, but I don't plan to waste my time. I have OSDev to do
Computafreak wrote:
I have OSDev to do
Ever since Walmart laid him off, he has all the time in the world.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Oakman wrote:
Isn't true that those decisions are being made now?
Nope.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I don't know why people don't also realize that Insurance is wealth redistribution. I've never filed an insurance claim in my life. Haven't needed to. Never in an accident. Never in bad health. Yet I pay premiums so some rich guy doesn't when an uninsured motorist wipes out his Hummer. Take my money and cover that guys loss. Socialism with profit for Insurance company shareholders. But, this is the law... and I distinctly remember Republicans backing it.
This statement is false
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Maybe to you. If a governments responsibilities do not lie within the people, where do they??
EliottA wrote:
a governments responsibilities
Defend the border / nation. nothing more.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.