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Mortgage Bailout

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  • E Ed Gadziemski

    BoneSoft wrote:

    The tax payer is the one and only group in this country that isn't to blame and shouldn't be held responsible.

    Are you saying that none of the homeowners going into foreclosure ever held jobs and paid taxes? They never worked, never paid income tax, never contributed in any way? Golly, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

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    BoneSoft
    wrote on last edited by
    #50

    No. But I'll bet few payed enough in taxes to cover their mortgage. Tax payer in general, the collective pot that everybody's money went. Did that really deserve a 1?


    Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

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    • O Oakman

      Chris Austin wrote:

      Cali. where the housing market is detached from reality in terms of affordability

      Is that still the case? I mean I know those folks on the left coast are divorced from reality but hasn't supply and demand kicked in yet?

      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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      Chris Austin
      wrote on last edited by
      #51

      Oakman wrote:

      I mean I know those folks on the left coast are divorced from reality but hasn't supply and demand kicked in yet?

      You would think so and in all honesty the prices are creeping down since they are ground-zero for foreclosures. But, homes are still expensive compared to even AZ and NV.

      Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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      • E Ed Gadziemski

        No. Are you? Do you live in one of the welfare states that sucks in more in Federal spending than they pay in Federal taxes? Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005[^]

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        Chris Austin
        wrote on last edited by
        #52

        Ed Gadziemski wrote:

        No. Are you?

        No. But I should be. It seems that those of us who lived within our means will be punished. It pisses me off to no end that I (and my son) will be paying for the guy next door's house that is bigger and fancier than mine yet they have always made less than us and bragged about their credit card debt. It's not right.

        Ed Gadziemski wrote:

        o you live in one of the welfare states that sucks in more in Federal spending than they pay in Federal taxes? Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005[^]

        I pay taxes in six states and what does it have to do with the price of tea in china?

        Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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        • O Oakman

          Christian Graus wrote:

          It's my opinion that people who bought houses they could not afford

          It's not always that easy. I read of one case where a woman put down 30% on her home but, because the money was in sub-prime mortages, the mortgage broker set her up with an adjustable ARM that kicked in after two years and jumped every six months. Now, even though she's got a job; even though she could easily make payments on the fixed rate mortgage she should have gotten, she's been foreclosed. Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block. But the first time you buy a home, you want, very badly, to trust the person who is putting together your mortgage. And, of course, she could be the only person who was served badly by these mortgage brokers - some of whom had been pizza delivery guys not too long before (I'm not kidding, someone who was a highup in Countrywide said that)- and everyone else who is being foreclosed upon is the scum of the earth. But I wouldn't put too much money on it.

          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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          Chris Austin
          wrote on last edited by
          #53

          Oakman wrote:

          Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block. But the first time you buy a home, you want, very badly, to trust the person who is putting together your mortgage.

          Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

          Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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          • C Christian Graus

            Oakman wrote:

            Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block

            Yes, I'm sure a lot of people got pushed into things they could not afford. I'm not saying these are bad people. I'm saying they are probably mostly pretty dumb, and dumb is still not something that other people should have to pay for.

            Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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            Chris Austin
            wrote on last edited by
            #54

            There is some comedian out there, I forget his name, that famously said: "You can't fix stupid.".

            Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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            • L leckey 0

              I think that shows that just because you have money, you have to do your research. My sister in law wanted to an ARM and hubby (her brother) and I finally talked her out of it. She's a PhD candidate in MATH and she could not figure out this one.

              Back in the blog beatch! http://CraptasticNation.blogspot.com/[^]

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              Chris Austin
              wrote on last edited by
              #55

              leckey wrote:

              She's a PhD candidate in MATH and she could not figure out this one.

              I don't mean to say you are embellishing the truth but I find that really hard to believe. The equations and indices that are used to calculate these payments and rates are not that complicated and pretty easy to find via google. My guess is that she was just emotional about it.

              Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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              • E Ed Gadziemski

                Plus, we could have saved about $10 trillion if we had simply addressed mortgages, the alleged root of the problem, instead of trying to trickle-down from Wall Street.

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                Chris Austin
                wrote on last edited by
                #56

                This is something we can agree on. I would have preferred to see the government just send every citizen a check.

                Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                • C Chris Austin

                  leckey wrote:

                  She's a PhD candidate in MATH and she could not figure out this one.

                  I don't mean to say you are embellishing the truth but I find that really hard to believe. The equations and indices that are used to calculate these payments and rates are not that complicated and pretty easy to find via google. My guess is that she was just emotional about it.

                  Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                  73Zeppelin
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #57

                  Yeah, I don't buy that either. If an MBA can understand it....

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                  • C Chris Austin

                    Oakman wrote:

                    Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block. But the first time you buy a home, you want, very badly, to trust the person who is putting together your mortgage.

                    Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

                    Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                    73Zeppelin
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #58

                    If you're going to sign something like a mortgage, you would think one would understand what one was signing. You would think they would be most interested in the fine print. I mean, you put your signature on there and it's binding. For that reason, I too have no sympathy for these people.

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                    • E Ed Gadziemski

                      Christian Graus wrote:

                      this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

                      No. One addresses a problem by uncovering the root and treating the rot. If it is true that bad mortgages are the root of the world's current rot, then throwing trillions at the leaves and branches as we are and have been doing fails to address the problem. I'd rather spend $500 billion to solve the problem, even knowing that some people will reap undeserved benefits, than continue to spend trillions to line the pockets of so-called financial wizards while not solving the problem. It's nice to stand on priciple, Christian, and piss on people worse off than yourself, and please, continue to do so if it makes you feel superior, but a little pragmatism mixed with a little compassion is what it will take to clean up the mess we're in. We have not and will not solve the problem by throwing buckets of cash at Wall Street and the other "players" that got us here.

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                      73Zeppelin
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #59

                      I'm sorry Ed, but this doesn't quite wash with me. I worked in the industry that securitized these loans. I agree that the banking system is partly to blame for marketing unsecure products as AAA rated. However, this is securitization after the fact. That means that in order to securitize these products, the mortgages had to exist. That means Mr. Smith and his wife signed the dotted line on their mortgage agreement. By signing that agreement, they agreed to all terms and conditions contained therein. Ignorance isn't a defense in this case, and it's really easy to want to pin the blame on a third party. That's just a convenient way to absolve the mortgage holder from any responsibility. If you want to look for the root of the problem, then the chain of causality doesn't start with securitized mortgage products.

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                      • C Chris Austin

                        Oakman wrote:

                        Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block. But the first time you buy a home, you want, very badly, to trust the person who is putting together your mortgage.

                        Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

                        Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                        Ilion
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #60

                        Chris Austin wrote:

                        Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

                        People understand quote well what they can and cannot afford ... but people also love to engage in magical thinking.

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                        • O Oakman

                          Marc Clifton wrote:

                          the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

                          You're right. But it's my understanding that these subsidies help more than just the potential defaulters. All of the homes on the same block are in danger of losing their value if one or two homes there are foreclosed on - and then suddenly people who have been doing everything right find themselves upside-down on their loans.

                          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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                          Marc Clifton
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #61

                          Oakman wrote:

                          All of the homes on the same block are in danger of losing their value if one or two homes there are foreclosed on

                          Aye, and that's another issue, the corruption in the appraisal business. I knew someone who was an appraiser, and appraisals were always moved up or down depending on the clout of the buyer, seller, or lender. The whole housing industry is corrupt, and to think things like appraisals were put into place as an attempt to reduce corruption. What a joke. When will people realize that corruption can't be legislated out of a system, it merely finds new ways to corrupt? Marc

                          Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx

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                          • M Marc Clifton

                            The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government. Link[^] As in: The Treasury plans to use $50 billion of the remaining $350 billion in bank-bailout funds for a program to help troubled homeowners avoid defaulting on their loans by subsidizing mortgage payments, subject to an affordability test. The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government. As part of one approach under consideration, monthly housing payments could be reduced to as low as 31% of borrowers' pretax income. What BS. No, the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!! Marc

                            Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx

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                            Synaptrik
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #62

                            Marc Clifton wrote:

                            The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government.

                            Marc Clifton wrote:

                            No, the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

                            Supposed to be the same thing. "We the People"

                            This statement is false

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                            • C Christian Graus

                              It's my opinion that people who bought houses they could not afford, deserve to lose them. Being in a house you can't afford should not be the only basis for the tax payer to buy it for you.

                              Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                              Synaptrik
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #63

                              While that's true, its hard to feel like it would be better spent by giving it to the banks. :doh:

                              This statement is false

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                              • B BoneSoft

                                Personally, I don't think of any of them as the scum of the Earth, the lenders were in a lot of cases (and the clowns that made other lenders do it). And I feel for them. But their loan is their responsibility, and it has to be that way, it should be that way. It sucks, but sticking everybody else with the bill is adding an unfair solution to an unfair problem. I say we sieze Jimmy Carter and ACORN's assets (and the dough ACORN is getting from porkulus), shut down and liquidate the assets of Freddy, Fannie, Country Wide, and any other lender that did hugely blantant preditory lending and divy that up amongst the worst of these mortgages. :thumbsup:


                                Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

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                                Synaptrik
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #64

                                OK, I'm curious. What has Jimmy Carter got to do with this current crisis? I'd say Clinton does more with the removal of the Glass-Steigal (sp?) act.

                                This statement is false

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                                • C Christian Graus

                                  Which is why I said it should not be the *only* criteria, not that no bail out at all is reasonable.

                                  Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                                  Others developed health or family problems such as divorce that ate up their cash reserves and income.

                                  Well, that's sad ( seriously ), but that happens to people all the time, this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

                                  Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                                  Synaptrik
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #65

                                  You're missing a key element here. Banks have programs available to restructure the loan and get these people through a crisis like losing a job. But loan modification departments are not being honest and fair. One example is Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. Quoted over the phone one plan, but then sent papers for a different plan with a balloon payment, when questioned about it, the response was: "Don't worry about that." Seriously. The loan-servicing people are not being responsible to the note holders or the customers. If a house has positive equity they have no reason to work with the people. Google Loan Modification Wells Fargo Home Mortgage Corruption and you'll see many stories of the banks messing with the people. In one case they were going to provide a moritorium and a modification, but since the customer got employed he didn't qualify for that and they demanded payment in full, instead of tacking the remaining owed on the back end of the loan, even when shown that the new job could afford the payments. So, I guess we really should just give all the money to the banks, then they'll have the money and the houses. Here's one story: I lost my house. I had a job and could afford it. They wouldn't work with me without a balloon payment of 14,000. We settled, I don't owe any taxes as they made 15,000 from the available equity in my house and that was after calculating what was late. I lost my job without warning. Savings didn't make it that long. Got a good job again, and they wouldn't work with me. They took my house. I had a 30 year fixed with a good interest rate as well. But due to my mother needing support all the time I couldn't maintain enough savings to cover the 6 months of no work and my mortgage payment. I was self employed when the contract was cancelled, and had no unemployment either. Such is life when you are at the mercy of the loan modification department. They stole my house. So, enjoy the comfort of your assumptions. There are more stories like this. Easily found on the net.

                                  This statement is false

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                                  • C Christian Graus

                                    Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                                    elping a targeted group of people

                                    My original statement was that I don't agree with just helping everyone who bought a house they cannot afford. I meant to imply that the sort of targetting you're talking about would be needed, instead of a payday for every person who bought a house and is close to defaulting.

                                    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                                    Synaptrik
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #66

                                    But letting all of those houses collapse just exacerbates the problem. The issue is how to keep the economy from caving in. The money goes to the banks or the people. More foreclosures means more property values fall, which leads to...

                                    This statement is false

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                                    • E Ed Gadziemski

                                      Marc Clifton wrote:

                                      the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

                                      You're right about that. Unlike the $10.7 trillion squandered thus far on Wall Street, I give my full support to the mortgage program and consider it a prudent use of my tax dollars.

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                                      CSS_Shadow
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #67

                                      Thats because you are a nigger, don't pay taxes, and collect welfare handouts from us whities.

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                                      • C Chris Austin

                                        bulg wrote:

                                        If you give the government your money, it is not your money anymore!

                                        One does not "give" the government money. If you don't believe me try not giving your taxes and see what happens.

                                        Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                        bulg
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #68

                                        Do you live in this country? Do you believe a government is necessary part of human civilization? Then you (tacitly) give your money to the government. If you truly didn't believe the government was necessary, you wouldn't. Every modern democracy has taxes. Taxes mean government. If you don't like it, go live somewhere you don't need government. I'm not going to define what government encompasses, suffice it to say that a lot of people who argue and make rules that you may not necessarily agree with go into it. But you take what you can get, because this is not a theoretical world.

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                                        • C Chris Austin

                                          Oakman wrote:

                                          I mean I know those folks on the left coast are divorced from reality but hasn't supply and demand kicked in yet?

                                          You would think so and in all honesty the prices are creeping down since they are ground-zero for foreclosures. But, homes are still expensive compared to even AZ and NV.

                                          Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                          bulg
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #69

                                          have you driven through (AZ | NV)? There's a reason land is cheap there. I'm sure you could build a mansion in Lone Pine or Mojave, if you wanted. Fresno, too.

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