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Mortgage Bailout

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  • E Ed Gadziemski

    Christian Graus wrote:

    this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

    No. One addresses a problem by uncovering the root and treating the rot. If it is true that bad mortgages are the root of the world's current rot, then throwing trillions at the leaves and branches as we are and have been doing fails to address the problem. I'd rather spend $500 billion to solve the problem, even knowing that some people will reap undeserved benefits, than continue to spend trillions to line the pockets of so-called financial wizards while not solving the problem. It's nice to stand on priciple, Christian, and piss on people worse off than yourself, and please, continue to do so if it makes you feel superior, but a little pragmatism mixed with a little compassion is what it will take to clean up the mess we're in. We have not and will not solve the problem by throwing buckets of cash at Wall Street and the other "players" that got us here.

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    73Zeppelin
    wrote on last edited by
    #59

    I'm sorry Ed, but this doesn't quite wash with me. I worked in the industry that securitized these loans. I agree that the banking system is partly to blame for marketing unsecure products as AAA rated. However, this is securitization after the fact. That means that in order to securitize these products, the mortgages had to exist. That means Mr. Smith and his wife signed the dotted line on their mortgage agreement. By signing that agreement, they agreed to all terms and conditions contained therein. Ignorance isn't a defense in this case, and it's really easy to want to pin the blame on a third party. That's just a convenient way to absolve the mortgage holder from any responsibility. If you want to look for the root of the problem, then the chain of causality doesn't start with securitized mortgage products.

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    • C Chris Austin

      Oakman wrote:

      Okay, she obviously wasn't the brightest bulb on the block. But the first time you buy a home, you want, very badly, to trust the person who is putting together your mortgage.

      Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

      Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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      Ilion
      wrote on last edited by
      #60

      Chris Austin wrote:

      Not to turn this into another rant in it's own. But, if people could just understand what they can afford versus having someone else tell them what they could afford we'd be much better off.

      People understand quote well what they can and cannot afford ... but people also love to engage in magical thinking.

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      • O Oakman

        Marc Clifton wrote:

        the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

        You're right. But it's my understanding that these subsidies help more than just the potential defaulters. All of the homes on the same block are in danger of losing their value if one or two homes there are foreclosed on - and then suddenly people who have been doing everything right find themselves upside-down on their loans.

        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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        Marc Clifton
        wrote on last edited by
        #61

        Oakman wrote:

        All of the homes on the same block are in danger of losing their value if one or two homes there are foreclosed on

        Aye, and that's another issue, the corruption in the appraisal business. I knew someone who was an appraiser, and appraisals were always moved up or down depending on the clout of the buyer, seller, or lender. The whole housing industry is corrupt, and to think things like appraisals were put into place as an attempt to reduce corruption. What a joke. When will people realize that corruption can't be legislated out of a system, it merely finds new ways to corrupt? Marc

        Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx

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        • M Marc Clifton

          The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government. Link[^] As in: The Treasury plans to use $50 billion of the remaining $350 billion in bank-bailout funds for a program to help troubled homeowners avoid defaulting on their loans by subsidizing mortgage payments, subject to an affordability test. The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government. As part of one approach under consideration, monthly housing payments could be reduced to as low as 31% of borrowers' pretax income. What BS. No, the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!! Marc

          Available for consulting and full time employment. Contact me. Interacx

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          Synaptrik
          wrote on last edited by
          #62

          Marc Clifton wrote:

          The cost of the subsidies would be paid by the government.

          Marc Clifton wrote:

          No, the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

          Supposed to be the same thing. "We the People"

          This statement is false

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          • C Christian Graus

            It's my opinion that people who bought houses they could not afford, deserve to lose them. Being in a house you can't afford should not be the only basis for the tax payer to buy it for you.

            Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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            Synaptrik
            wrote on last edited by
            #63

            While that's true, its hard to feel like it would be better spent by giving it to the banks. :doh:

            This statement is false

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            • B BoneSoft

              Personally, I don't think of any of them as the scum of the Earth, the lenders were in a lot of cases (and the clowns that made other lenders do it). And I feel for them. But their loan is their responsibility, and it has to be that way, it should be that way. It sucks, but sticking everybody else with the bill is adding an unfair solution to an unfair problem. I say we sieze Jimmy Carter and ACORN's assets (and the dough ACORN is getting from porkulus), shut down and liquidate the assets of Freddy, Fannie, Country Wide, and any other lender that did hugely blantant preditory lending and divy that up amongst the worst of these mortgages. :thumbsup:


              Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

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              Synaptrik
              wrote on last edited by
              #64

              OK, I'm curious. What has Jimmy Carter got to do with this current crisis? I'd say Clinton does more with the removal of the Glass-Steigal (sp?) act.

              This statement is false

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              • C Christian Graus

                Which is why I said it should not be the *only* criteria, not that no bail out at all is reasonable.

                Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                Others developed health or family problems such as divorce that ate up their cash reserves and income.

                Well, that's sad ( seriously ), but that happens to people all the time, this lot should get bailed out because of the timing of when it happened to them ?

                Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                Synaptrik
                wrote on last edited by
                #65

                You're missing a key element here. Banks have programs available to restructure the loan and get these people through a crisis like losing a job. But loan modification departments are not being honest and fair. One example is Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. Quoted over the phone one plan, but then sent papers for a different plan with a balloon payment, when questioned about it, the response was: "Don't worry about that." Seriously. The loan-servicing people are not being responsible to the note holders or the customers. If a house has positive equity they have no reason to work with the people. Google Loan Modification Wells Fargo Home Mortgage Corruption and you'll see many stories of the banks messing with the people. In one case they were going to provide a moritorium and a modification, but since the customer got employed he didn't qualify for that and they demanded payment in full, instead of tacking the remaining owed on the back end of the loan, even when shown that the new job could afford the payments. So, I guess we really should just give all the money to the banks, then they'll have the money and the houses. Here's one story: I lost my house. I had a job and could afford it. They wouldn't work with me without a balloon payment of 14,000. We settled, I don't owe any taxes as they made 15,000 from the available equity in my house and that was after calculating what was late. I lost my job without warning. Savings didn't make it that long. Got a good job again, and they wouldn't work with me. They took my house. I had a 30 year fixed with a good interest rate as well. But due to my mother needing support all the time I couldn't maintain enough savings to cover the 6 months of no work and my mortgage payment. I was self employed when the contract was cancelled, and had no unemployment either. Such is life when you are at the mercy of the loan modification department. They stole my house. So, enjoy the comfort of your assumptions. There are more stories like this. Easily found on the net.

                This statement is false

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                • C Christian Graus

                  Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                  elping a targeted group of people

                  My original statement was that I don't agree with just helping everyone who bought a house they cannot afford. I meant to imply that the sort of targetting you're talking about would be needed, instead of a payday for every person who bought a house and is close to defaulting.

                  Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                  Synaptrik
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #66

                  But letting all of those houses collapse just exacerbates the problem. The issue is how to keep the economy from caving in. The money goes to the banks or the people. More foreclosures means more property values fall, which leads to...

                  This statement is false

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                  • E Ed Gadziemski

                    Marc Clifton wrote:

                    the cost of the subsidies would be paid by the American TAXPAYER!!!

                    You're right about that. Unlike the $10.7 trillion squandered thus far on Wall Street, I give my full support to the mortgage program and consider it a prudent use of my tax dollars.

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                    CSS_Shadow
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #67

                    Thats because you are a nigger, don't pay taxes, and collect welfare handouts from us whities.

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                    • C Chris Austin

                      bulg wrote:

                      If you give the government your money, it is not your money anymore!

                      One does not "give" the government money. If you don't believe me try not giving your taxes and see what happens.

                      Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                      bulg
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #68

                      Do you live in this country? Do you believe a government is necessary part of human civilization? Then you (tacitly) give your money to the government. If you truly didn't believe the government was necessary, you wouldn't. Every modern democracy has taxes. Taxes mean government. If you don't like it, go live somewhere you don't need government. I'm not going to define what government encompasses, suffice it to say that a lot of people who argue and make rules that you may not necessarily agree with go into it. But you take what you can get, because this is not a theoretical world.

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                      • C Chris Austin

                        Oakman wrote:

                        I mean I know those folks on the left coast are divorced from reality but hasn't supply and demand kicked in yet?

                        You would think so and in all honesty the prices are creeping down since they are ground-zero for foreclosures. But, homes are still expensive compared to even AZ and NV.

                        Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                        bulg
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #69

                        have you driven through (AZ | NV)? There's a reason land is cheap there. I'm sure you could build a mansion in Lone Pine or Mojave, if you wanted. Fresno, too.

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                        • B BoneSoft

                          No. But I'll bet few payed enough in taxes to cover their mortgage. Tax payer in general, the collective pot that everybody's money went. Did that really deserve a 1?


                          Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

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                          Ed Gadziemski
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #70

                          BoneSoft wrote:

                          Did that really deserve a 1?

                          I didn't think so. I didn't vote on it.

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                          • C Chris Austin

                            Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                            No. Are you?

                            No. But I should be. It seems that those of us who lived within our means will be punished. It pisses me off to no end that I (and my son) will be paying for the guy next door's house that is bigger and fancier than mine yet they have always made less than us and bragged about their credit card debt. It's not right.

                            Ed Gadziemski wrote:

                            o you live in one of the welfare states that sucks in more in Federal spending than they pay in Federal taxes? Federal Taxes Paid vs. Federal Spending Received by State, 1981-2005[^]

                            I pay taxes in six states and what does it have to do with the price of tea in china?

                            Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                            Ed Gadziemski
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #71

                            Chris Austin wrote:

                            I (and my son) will be paying for the guy next door's house that is bigger and fancier than mine yet they have always made less than us and bragged about their credit card debt. It's not right.

                            No, it's not. Many things in life are not right.

                            Chris Austin wrote:

                            I pay taxes in six states and what does it have to do with the price of tea in china?

                            It gives you the right to complain about taxes if you want to. However, people in states Alabama that get Federal welfare by receiving more than they pay need to STFU. That includes Sen. Shelby and other jerks like him.

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                            • 7 73Zeppelin

                              I'm sorry Ed, but this doesn't quite wash with me. I worked in the industry that securitized these loans. I agree that the banking system is partly to blame for marketing unsecure products as AAA rated. However, this is securitization after the fact. That means that in order to securitize these products, the mortgages had to exist. That means Mr. Smith and his wife signed the dotted line on their mortgage agreement. By signing that agreement, they agreed to all terms and conditions contained therein. Ignorance isn't a defense in this case, and it's really easy to want to pin the blame on a third party. That's just a convenient way to absolve the mortgage holder from any responsibility. If you want to look for the root of the problem, then the chain of causality doesn't start with securitized mortgage products.

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                              Ed Gadziemski
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #72

                              73Zeppelin wrote:

                              If you want to look for the root of the problem, then the chain of causality doesn't start with securitized mortgage products.

                              I have no idea what you are talking about. I made no such claim. :confused:

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                              • B bulg

                                have you driven through (AZ | NV)? There's a reason land is cheap there. I'm sure you could build a mansion in Lone Pine or Mojave, if you wanted. Fresno, too.

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                                Chris Austin
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #73

                                bulg wrote:

                                have you driven through (AZ | NV)? There's a reason land is cheap there. I'm sure you could build a mansion in Lone Pine or Mojave, if you wanted. Fresno, too.

                                My goodness, you are not very bright. I am from Phoenix. I am also extremely aware that home values in the Phoenix metro area and many metro areas in Nevada skyrocketed over the last eight years in comparison to the rest of the country along with California and Florida. But, presently home values in Phoenix and Vegas have taken a substantial beating in comparison to those in the People's Republic of Cali. That was the point that Jon and I were discussing. Simply how Cali's prices are versus a few of it's neighboring states.

                                Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                • B bulg

                                  Do you live in this country? Do you believe a government is necessary part of human civilization? Then you (tacitly) give your money to the government. If you truly didn't believe the government was necessary, you wouldn't. Every modern democracy has taxes. Taxes mean government. If you don't like it, go live somewhere you don't need government. I'm not going to define what government encompasses, suffice it to say that a lot of people who argue and make rules that you may not necessarily agree with go into it. But you take what you can get, because this is not a theoretical world.

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                                  Chris Austin
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #74

                                  Please. As you stated you know this is not a theoretical world. I made no value statement about the merit of taxes or government, just simply that we do not freely give it to the government; it is taken from us and with force if we object.

                                  Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                  • C Christian Graus

                                    Stan Shannon wrote:

                                    Those are the only legitimate reasons to tax (and with schools the taxation should be purely a state/local concern)

                                    What about the fire service ? Ambulances ? The forest service ? The list goes on.

                                    Stan Shannon wrote:

                                    . Those who are dependent upon the same state they are voting for cannot possible cast a free vote. Its impossible. They are dependents.

                                    I tend to agree, and that's the problem with welfare, is that people will vote for whoever pays them the most. Personally, I think that those on the state's dime, should not be allowed to vote until they have a job and are paying taxes.

                                    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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                                    Stan Shannon
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #75

                                    Christian Graus wrote:

                                    What about the fire service ? Ambulances ? The forest service ? The list goes on.

                                    General Welfare - good. Targeted welfare that requires redistribution of wealth from one economic class to another - bad.

                                    Christian Graus wrote:

                                    I tend to agree, and that's the problem with welfare, is that people will vote for whoever pays them the most. Personally, I think that those on the state's dime, should not be allowed to vote until they have a job and are paying taxes.

                                    Than we agree completely.

                                    Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                                    • C Chris Austin

                                      bulg wrote:

                                      have you driven through (AZ | NV)? There's a reason land is cheap there. I'm sure you could build a mansion in Lone Pine or Mojave, if you wanted. Fresno, too.

                                      My goodness, you are not very bright. I am from Phoenix. I am also extremely aware that home values in the Phoenix metro area and many metro areas in Nevada skyrocketed over the last eight years in comparison to the rest of the country along with California and Florida. But, presently home values in Phoenix and Vegas have taken a substantial beating in comparison to those in the People's Republic of Cali. That was the point that Jon and I were discussing. Simply how Cali's prices are versus a few of it's neighboring states.

                                      Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                      bulg
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #76

                                      Are you disagreeing with me that land in Ca. should in general be worth more than land in Az / Nv ? Because that's what I was saying. And I would bet that those places I mentioned have taken a land-value beating comparable to Az & Nv (in terms of years since they were worth what they are worth today), though I'm not going to look it up. Simply, that discussing such an issue on a state-wide level sounds like arm-chair philosophy, and that I would suggest the importance of climate & geography.

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                                      • C Chris Austin

                                        Please. As you stated you know this is not a theoretical world. I made no value statement about the merit of taxes or government, just simply that we do not freely give it to the government; it is taken from us and with force if we object.

                                        Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

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                                        bulg
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #77

                                        I may have been totally off on the tone of your post then, I thought you were insinuating that you would withhold your taxes if you could when the government isn't doing what you want it to do. edit: However I disagree with your (now clear) thesis that we do not freely give to the government. You choose to live here means you choose to pay taxes and support the government. You can choose to leave, and not pay taxes. You cannot separate the choice you make to live & work here from the responsibilities that come w/ that choice.

                                        modified on Wednesday, February 18, 2009 8:21 PM

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                                        • S Synaptrik

                                          OK, I'm curious. What has Jimmy Carter got to do with this current crisis? I'd say Clinton does more with the removal of the Glass-Steigal (sp?) act.

                                          This statement is false

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                                          BoneSoft
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #78

                                          Carter started the Community Reinvestment Act, Clinton put it on steroids with his addition of the SubPrime Mortgage. Though I think it was fairly tame at the time and was probably set up to actually do some good (besides the fact that it was motivated primarily by an affirmative action mindset). I think activists pressing the issue were what really started to do damage, and the subprime just made it worse. CRA just opened the door for exploitation, some of which probably couldn't have been foreseen at the time. But it was the begining of the realization of the dream of getting people into homes who couldn't afford them.


                                          Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.

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