Programming: Intrinsic or Taught
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
When I studied programming in college computers were in there infancy. Basically we were introduced to Data Structures which had been around for a long time and breifly reviewed various languages such as: cobol, fortran, PL/1, Pascal and so on. The professors had there own programming styles and methods for developing using flow charts and top-to-bottom and bottom-to-top methodology. From the statement above I would say that I am self taught and am still learning. Mike
"It doesn't matter how big a ranch ya' own, or how many cows ya' brand, the size of your funeral is still gonna depend on the weather." -Harry Truman.
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
A combination of environment and self-teaching is what develops a good programmer. I have seen people in some good projects dealing with latest and greatest but with no desire to learn on their own by going beyond 9-5. They did not become good programmers. On the other hand I have seen brilliant self-taught programmers however they could not progress beyond because they were not in the right environment with right guidance. They are some things which you can only learn from experience by being in the right environment: writing and designing production style code is one of them. I always considered myself a great programmer till I started interacting with customers. A frog who lives in a well can become a master of his dominion (the well). He can know all there is abut the well but if he constrains himself to the well he will never know about the lake, the river and the ocean.
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Everyone that can program was born with the knowledge, and wpf programmers get it via annoculation. As if people learn things by going to school. And shouts out to my philosophy teacher... the only thing i learned from your class is no matter how much time i put into my work, all grades received are a fraction of the previous assignment. I'm obviously to evil to be a computer engineer :D
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I have the fortune of learning from both, University and Self-taught. However, until I had that AHA moment freshman year I did not really get programming. Sure I could do it and follow the steps but the art evaded me and then it clicked. Anyone can program a computer but you can't teach good programming. Unfortunately, it is a hard thing to evaluate. Programming is a very difficult field to level. To this day I still get into heated debates with supposed Web Architects about why you can't write web based systems that rely on file extensions.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Doing a job is like selecting a mule, you can't choose just the front half xor the back half so when you ask me to do a job don't expect me to do it half-assed.Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Web Architects
Well that alone should clue you in not to even waste time arguing with them. I'll go out on a limb and claim that 90% of the people who use "Web Architect" as a title don't know what the hell they're talking about.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
First let me point out that I am still learning. I attended a school with a mediocre CIS curricula. As a result I attained a grasp of extremely important subjects and a grounding in fundamentals. Other than that my abilities at the end of my formal education were unremarkable. In my early post school years I taught myself many many things about programming, most of which were wrong so I had to unlearn them. I also read several books a year most of which proved extremely helpful. Thankfully the advent of the internet made information available from colleagues in our field that are smarter than me and have exposure to real world experiences that I will never have ( yes, some of you frequent CodeProject). They are the source of my continuing education. Now that I have stopped trying to teach myself in favor of learning from smarter more experience people, the quality of my education and resultant work is dramatically improved.
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Web Architects
Well that alone should clue you in not to even waste time arguing with them. I'll go out on a limb and claim that 90% of the people who use "Web Architect" as a title don't know what the hell they're talking about.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
My favorite was being asked to explain what the ol element was in HTML.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Doing a job is like selecting a mule, you can't choose just the front half xor the back half so when you ask me to do a job don't expect me to do it half-assed. -
On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I would say great programmers are those that have a "problem solving" skill set from very early on - any formal training (whether from schooling or on-the-job experience) just focuses that skill set ... like swimming - everyone can learn it, but to be really good at it there must be that "something extra" that is built in from the start (Michael Phelps as an example).
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Same with most things; you have to love it to do it well. If you don't have the aptitude, you can't learn it. Even if you have the aptitude, you still need to be taught. And taught. And taught some more. The best training comes from working with people who have been doing it for a long time. And you're unlikely to get such a job without a degree. The first programming job I had after I got my BSCS I was on my own to write a complete system (in VAX C). I did it, in the allotted time, it worked (it may still be working, I don't know), and I think it is/was better than what many of my classmates would have produced. But it is by no means of "professional" quality. The next job I had I was on a team, maintaining a large product, and that was a huge step in improving my skills. Programming is a little easier than many disciplines because: you have the compiler to help you, there is undo, you don't (generally) use up physical resources on failed attempts, and you don't need to start all over from the beginning after a failed attempt. Kids these days don't know how good they have it. We didn't have Visual Studio, .net, and the Internet when I was in school.
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A combination of environment and self-teaching is what develops a good programmer. I have seen people in some good projects dealing with latest and greatest but with no desire to learn on their own by going beyond 9-5. They did not become good programmers. On the other hand I have seen brilliant self-taught programmers however they could not progress beyond because they were not in the right environment with right guidance. They are some things which you can only learn from experience by being in the right environment: writing and designing production style code is one of them. I always considered myself a great programmer till I started interacting with customers. A frog who lives in a well can become a master of his dominion (the well). He can know all there is abut the well but if he constrains himself to the well he will never know about the lake, the river and the ocean.
That is completely true.
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Sig history "dad" Ishmail-Samuel Mustafa Unix is a Four Letter Word, and Vi is a Two Letter Abbreviation
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I would say great programmers are those that have a "problem solving" skill set from very early on - any formal training (whether from schooling or on-the-job experience) just focuses that skill set ... like swimming - everyone can learn it, but to be really good at it there must be that "something extra" that is built in from the start (Michael Phelps as an example).
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Steve Mayfield wrote:
like swimming - everyone can learn it
As I always say, "I know how to swim; I'm just no good at it, and I have no desire to improve."
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I randomly smash buttons until I get the desired result. The more noise I make the happier management is.
Todd Smith
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I would say intrinsic and learned. I think you have to "get it" and be willing to learn.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?
modified on Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:22 PM
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Programming is both intrinsic and taught. I've been programming for almost 10 years now. I have had no college level classes in programming though I do have a bachelors degree from Univ. of Richmond. I feel my liberal arts education helped me to think logically which helps me program. Nothing teaches programming like actual experience though. College and University can give you a good head start, but nothing beats years of real world experience. Also it is hard to determine what makes a great programmer. Which would you rather have on your team? A good coder who gets the job done on time and writes code that is easy to follow and understand by other programmers. Or would you rather have the elitist programmer who can solve any problem with C++, but nobody else can understand the code?
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I don't consider myself self-taught, but educated by the community. Yeah, there was some schooling that was labeled "Programming", but that was indeed lessons in syntax, diagramming and a lot of documentation (the SDM-days, never used it IRL). Aw, and kissing a professors' arse. Needless to say I failed at my schooling. "Educated" by the community, because the algorithms from the books didn't come alive until I started using them. Followed a lot of tutorials, but those were prepped by the community. Read tons of articles, misinterpreted some, and got corrected. Even wrote some articles. Had lots of non-programming education which made me a better programmer. I can still hear grandma shout that I should clean the kitchen after an attempt at cooking, and my grandfather nodding that she's right, simply because a worker cleans his tools. The field ain't old enough to sell "handcrafted" applications like they are hot buns, but craftsmanship isn't determined by age, and I don't think it's hereditary. To some it's a job, to others a living, and some people are actually defined by what they do. There's lots of people here that I consider "craftsmen". I ain't there yet, and even if I never get that far - I'll always consider information to be my meat, and I'll always strive to become better. Your question has reminded me of the fact that I forgot something that I'll correct right now; A big thanks to everyone here who had to bear my ignorance, as it has helped me to become what I am :-\
I are troll :)
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Same with most things; you have to love it to do it well. If you don't have the aptitude, you can't learn it. Even if you have the aptitude, you still need to be taught. And taught. And taught some more. The best training comes from working with people who have been doing it for a long time. And you're unlikely to get such a job without a degree. The first programming job I had after I got my BSCS I was on my own to write a complete system (in VAX C). I did it, in the allotted time, it worked (it may still be working, I don't know), and I think it is/was better than what many of my classmates would have produced. But it is by no means of "professional" quality. The next job I had I was on a team, maintaining a large product, and that was a huge step in improving my skills. Programming is a little easier than many disciplines because: you have the compiler to help you, there is undo, you don't (generally) use up physical resources on failed attempts, and you don't need to start all over from the beginning after a failed attempt. Kids these days don't know how good they have it. We didn't have Visual Studio, .net, and the Internet when I was in school.
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
The best training comes from working with people who have been doing it for a long time.
Not necessarily "work". There's experts here that I don't work with, and their knowledge still rubs off. I agree that you should seek out the place where the people lurk that are good at what you want to become good at :)
I are troll :)
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I personally believe that the best way to learn programming is to do programming. You can only be taught the basics of programming but for you to be worthy of being called a programmer. It has to come from within you. Programming is therefore self-taught. I was given the basics in college but i had to teach myself to be where i am today.
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
-my Dad got given a ZX spectrum when I was about 7 or so, and I started playing on that, writing little games and stuff -in highschool, I started on turbo pascal -after studying for A+, N+ etc, realised I didn't want to spend my life crawling around underneath someone's desk, so I started teaching myself -got 1st job, largely unsupervised: allowed me to continue teaching myself -got "proper" job, with excellent mentoring on some *real* OO and great design practices - my education in "the Art" started here -got another job and learnt about customers, long-hours, business, and some more advanced DB designs (important if you're a developer, not a coder) -got another job (current), and started learning from some of the best, and (*fanfare*) at last started working with more cutting edge tech. In between all this I started my BSc (as yet unfinished) and got a few qualifications on the way. Overall, I would say you HAVE to have certain "hard-coded" skills in you, and after that you really need passion, good mentorship, and some good old fashioned experience. I believe hard-qualifications like degrees can *partially* replace the need for mentors (if the university is any good), but a degree a good programmer does not make.
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Roughly, for me (in sequential order:) Self taught. Re-taught the "proper" way to do things at college. Re-taught the "proper proper" way to do things at university. Re-taught the "proper proper proper" way to do things in my first job. Re-taught the "proper proper proper proper" way to do things in my second job Teach others
Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
Thats what I thought, not education vs self taught, but education && self taught. As a 90% self taught I feel I need more education, but have seen educated without experience that are clueless
____________________________________________________________ Be brave little warrior, be VERY brave
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Web Architects
Well that alone should clue you in not to even waste time arguing with them. I'll go out on a limb and claim that 90% of the people who use "Web Architect" as a title don't know what the hell they're talking about.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! VCF Blog Just Say No to Web 2 Point Oh
And why is that? It may be an odd title since presumably such people architect web applications, not the web itself, but it's surely no worse than most other titles in this line of work. I hope you aren't suggesting there is no need for architecting web apps.
