Programming: Intrinsic or Taught
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
I always say that I got my education from Barnes & Noble and the Internet. I do have a 2 yr degree in General Education and have always loved computing. I started at age 9 when my Dad gave me a Commodore 64 and I would read him lines of code from magazines to do the silly little programs the authors would put there for you to type endlessly to produce a text based RPG. Programming is a state of mind, its logic and math. My kids often ask what I do all day and I respond..."You know those word problems you hate so much? That's what I do...ALL DAY!". After 13 years of doing this professionally, I can say that I still learn something new everyday. Which in the end keeps me driven. Self taught = taught by others in an informal environment, in my opinion. I have learned a great deal from articles posted here and other great resources on the Web, and I'm man enough to say that I still haven't got it all. Thanks to MSFT, Sun and Oracle we can all continue to learn something new. Be it a new language, design pattern or tool set because they never seem to happy with mediocrity. In the end you either get it or not. Programming is like mixing drinks! Pour how you feel, you can hit it hard and loose and suffer the consequences...just learn from your mistakes.
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I have the fortune of learning from both, University and Self-taught. However, until I had that AHA moment freshman year I did not really get programming. Sure I could do it and follow the steps but the art evaded me and then it clicked. Anyone can program a computer but you can't teach good programming. Unfortunately, it is a hard thing to evaluate. Programming is a very difficult field to level. To this day I still get into heated debates with supposed Web Architects about why you can't write web based systems that rely on file extensions.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Doing a job is like selecting a mule, you can't choose just the front half xor the back half so when you ask me to do a job don't expect me to do it half-assed.Right about the AHA moment. :omg: I had that same thing happen, but not until my sophmore year however. I think to be a good programmer, you have to have the knack for problem solving...and that can't be taught. :-D
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Both. My post secondary education focused less on syntax, and more on methodology, so I was taught to teach myself further skillsets. Syntax is easy- just hit F1 is what to remember for syntax. LOGIC, especially boolean logic, is harder. It helps if you're already pretty much a black and white thinker- thinking in terms of on or off. Ultimately, if-then-else is the most powerful statement to learn in any computer language. Once you've got the syntax of that, you can do anything.
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
In most cases I would go with the intrinsic argument... I took 1 year of Comp Sci, realized that it was just a glorified math class (the lack of female students didn't help either), and switched to political science! Now I have the pleasure of interviewing junior developers to join my ASP.NET team, and I have found, almost without exception, that the computer science grads are utterly clueless in terms of understanding the user experience, and have no idea about web application architecture (they try to make everything so strictly OOP that it takes them three months to build a login module!) I think part of the problem is that Comp Sci programs do not teach practical things like web application development and user interface development and instead focus on the writing of highly optimized algorithms that are not really relevant in a client-server environment, since the delays caused by an inefficient sorting algorithm in this context are totally unnoticeable relative to the very real problem of network latency and inefficient database queries. Maybe its also that the self-taught developers have a personality more suited to the agile development mixed with cowboy coding methodology prevalent in Web 2.0 shops... you've got to be a pretty rigid thinker to make it through the tedium of Big-O and other such computer science concepts. Interesting, the one exception is the director of my department, who got his Comp Sci degree but far prefers doing creative stuff like wireframing and user experience architecture than writing code at all.
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
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A combination of environment and self-teaching is what develops a good programmer. I have seen people in some good projects dealing with latest and greatest but with no desire to learn on their own by going beyond 9-5. They did not become good programmers. On the other hand I have seen brilliant self-taught programmers however they could not progress beyond because they were not in the right environment with right guidance. They are some things which you can only learn from experience by being in the right environment: writing and designing production style code is one of them. I always considered myself a great programmer till I started interacting with customers. A frog who lives in a well can become a master of his dominion (the well). He can know all there is abut the well but if he constrains himself to the well he will never know about the lake, the river and the ocean.
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Interesting question. I'm completely self-taught so I can't answer from experience whether programming can be taught. My guess is that someone with good problem solving skills plus an interest can be taught how to program. Book learnin' does have its place, and I think my early years (starting in '71) could've benefitted from study of operating system architectures. But on the other hand, I understood the first computer reference manual I read and the learning process continues, as it should. I also believe that being "taught" doesn't necessarily mean limiting one's self to the ever-changing latest patterns and practices. In my opinion, the best programmers glean the best bits from all they encounter, and hopefully they read a lot, and simply deliver working code. Oh, and let me dispel an enduring myth...proficiency in math is not required! I am totally math-phobic and never understood the link between the so-called logical nature of mathematics and programming. What this means is that if I need a hashing or encryption algorithm, I call on someone who knows that stuff!
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
Nearly everyone who has a desire to learn how to program can do so (with varying degrees of success). The thing that I have learned is that there are those who have a natural ability to think logically and can break down complex problems into smaller, more manageable chunks. These individuals (and they are not always programmers, or even technical for that matter) will be the ones that have a greater likelihood of success. Logical thinking can be taught, but it is a matter of retraining the individuals thought process - which is no small feat. Those who have this innate logical thought process have a much higher ceiling, and schooling or experience can enhance it; those without it start off at a lower ceiling. Furthermore, experience, not college, is the greatest teacher. No amount of schooling can completely prepare you for the rigors of development in a mission critical environment. Great programmers were not born great, they were born with an aptitude and desire for programming, but they are a product of the mentorship and environment that they came from. The best programmers I have worked with can all point to a single, more senior programmer who taught them the intricate details of software development somewhere in their past. Add to that the experience of working with great teams on successful (or even disastrous) projects and you have the perfect recipe for terrific programmers. Finally, and this can not be taught, the most critical piece of the puzzle is passion and desire. The individual who is internally motivated to learn new techniques, new technologies and better, more efficient ways of development will always be a star. Even the most skilled programmer in a team will quickly be left behind in our ever-changing field unless he/she has a desire to improve their skill set. I would gladly hire someone into my team that demonstrates a passion for their field, a clear, logical thought process and a few years of applicable experience. The education part of the equation simply does not factor into my decisions at all. I have seen too many "career students" with no aptitude to give any weight to the education section of the resume. Give me someone who can and more importantly wants to be taught, rather than someone who knows it all. With that being said, I would describe myself as self taught, but I had a lot of mentors and guidance along the way.
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When I studied programming in college computers were in there infancy. Basically we were introduced to Data Structures which had been around for a long time and breifly reviewed various languages such as: cobol, fortran, PL/1, Pascal and so on. The professors had there own programming styles and methods for developing using flow charts and top-to-bottom and bottom-to-top methodology. From the statement above I would say that I am self taught and am still learning. Mike
"It doesn't matter how big a ranch ya' own, or how many cows ya' brand, the size of your funeral is still gonna depend on the weather." -Harry Truman.
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
Same here. I went to college and studied Math because I liked it but wasn't good enough to major in Physics - which is what I really thought I wanted to do. I hadn't even seen a computer, let alone use one. I met a guy who was taking BASIC and COBOL classes and it sounded interesting so I took the optional Fortran class. That's when I had that AHA moment and knew that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. At that time there weren't really any programming classes that taught how to do it rather than just teaching the language itself. My classes were in Fortran, Algol, data structures using Lisp and assembler. I spent the first 20+ years writing programs in assembler and learning how to do it right by studying how others before were doing it and learning on my own. I think the "still learning" goes without saying - if you aren't still learning programming you're dead or retired (and learning something else).
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
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On my way to work today, I was thinking about my development as a programmer. I do have post-secondary education in the field, but, I think what I was taught there was more of the syntax of a language than how to program itself. With that thought in mind, I would describe myself as self-taught. As an example of being completely taught a skill, my oldest brother is a meat cutter by trade. He was taught his skillset by our father and then refined his skillset by attending college. How would you describe yourself in this regard? Tim
By combining: the love of solving tricky math problems (likely taught too), the knowledge of a language syntax (it needs good references), the ability to have the right tools/platform, ... the birth of a new bright self-taught programmer is natural. In my case, the 3rd factor has always limited my skills... but it is better than nothing. Kerim
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Same here. I went to college and studied Math because I liked it but wasn't good enough to major in Physics - which is what I really thought I wanted to do. I hadn't even seen a computer, let alone use one. I met a guy who was taking BASIC and COBOL classes and it sounded interesting so I took the optional Fortran class. That's when I had that AHA moment and knew that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. At that time there weren't really any programming classes that taught how to do it rather than just teaching the language itself. My classes were in Fortran, Algol, data structures using Lisp and assembler. I spent the first 20+ years writing programs in assembler and learning how to do it right by studying how others before were doing it and learning on my own. I think the "still learning" goes without saying - if you aren't still learning programming you're dead or retired (and learning something else).
Earl Truss wrote:
I think the "still learning" goes without saying - if you aren't still learning programming you're dead or retired (and learning something else).
Technology is changing so fast that if you don't continue learning you get left behind. Once I started programming I never looked back or regretted it! Mike
"It doesn't matter how big a ranch ya' own, or how many cows ya' brand, the size of your funeral is still gonna depend on the weather." -Harry Truman.
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
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Right about the AHA moment. :omg: I had that same thing happen, but not until my sophmore year however. I think to be a good programmer, you have to have the knack for problem solving...and that can't be taught. :-D
Yes, you need to be good at problem solving AND you need to be humble enough to realize that next time around your code would be even better (hardly any code cannot be improved). Humble part helps you to learn from your own code which is probably best thing. Also improvement never stops. The older you get the better you are. … and you are guessing right – I am pretty old and still have fun so hopefully many of you will have it at my age too :)
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I have the fortune of learning from both, University and Self-taught. However, until I had that AHA moment freshman year I did not really get programming. Sure I could do it and follow the steps but the art evaded me and then it clicked. Anyone can program a computer but you can't teach good programming. Unfortunately, it is a hard thing to evaluate. Programming is a very difficult field to level. To this day I still get into heated debates with supposed Web Architects about why you can't write web based systems that rely on file extensions.
Need custom software developed? I do C# development and consulting all over the United States.
If you don't ask questions the answers won't stand in your way.
Doing a job is like selecting a mule, you can't choose just the front half xor the back half so when you ask me to do a job don't expect me to do it half-assed.Web ArchitectS - does that mean that there are TBL clones out there, or that as an incarnation of Dr DoLittle you can converse with spiders :laugh:
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I would say great programmers are those that have a "problem solving" skill set from very early on - any formal training (whether from schooling or on-the-job experience) just focuses that skill set ... like swimming - everyone can learn it, but to be really good at it there must be that "something extra" that is built in from the start (Michael Phelps as an example).
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Aah, someone else recognises the need for aptitude, IMO the number 1 requirement. Good programmers are born, better than good programmers are trained -- formally, vocationally and experientially. I started by learning on the job, first writing Autocoder on Ferranti boxes, then Algol on Burroughs boxes, most training came from the h/w manufacturers (e.g. I learnt fortran at the CDC Institute). I don't think there were many CompSci degrees or diplomas in the late sixties. In the eighties I thought I'd like to teach, so I did a double masters in CompSci & EEng. Having seen broken souls that litter the academic battlegrounds I soon gave up on the teaching idea, I'd only ever thought of teaching at the tertiary level. I think I learnt more in the sixties & seventies than I did in the eighties. However the degree gave me a much better grounding for what I've had to learn in the nineties and naughties; aside from wpf of course, where I suspect a degree in chaos theory and/or semiotics might be relevant, or perhaps I've just become an old dog. BTW if you want to be a champion swimmer then big feet are a useful asset, most top swimmers have them.
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Same with most things; you have to love it to do it well. If you don't have the aptitude, you can't learn it. Even if you have the aptitude, you still need to be taught. And taught. And taught some more. The best training comes from working with people who have been doing it for a long time. And you're unlikely to get such a job without a degree. The first programming job I had after I got my BSCS I was on my own to write a complete system (in VAX C). I did it, in the allotted time, it worked (it may still be working, I don't know), and I think it is/was better than what many of my classmates would have produced. But it is by no means of "professional" quality. The next job I had I was on a team, maintaining a large product, and that was a huge step in improving my skills. Programming is a little easier than many disciplines because: you have the compiler to help you, there is undo, you don't (generally) use up physical resources on failed attempts, and you don't need to start all over from the beginning after a failed attempt. Kids these days don't know how good they have it. We didn't have Visual Studio, .net, and the Internet when I was in school.
Kids these days don't know how good they have it ... like you I started programming in 1970 with mainframes and movedo microprocessors when the Intel 8008 was released ... we knew and respected the value of every byte...when Dr Dobbs published the source for Tiny Basic, we really appreciated all of the tricks that were used to maximize memory usage ... how many kids today could create code for a "middle of the road features" interpreter that runs in 4 to 8K of memory???
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
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Kids these days don't know how good they have it ... like you I started programming in 1970 with mainframes and movedo microprocessors when the Intel 8008 was released ... we knew and respected the value of every byte...when Dr Dobbs published the source for Tiny Basic, we really appreciated all of the tricks that were used to maximize memory usage ... how many kids today could create code for a "middle of the road features" interpreter that runs in 4 to 8K of memory???
Steve _________________ I C(++) therefore I am
Steve Mayfield wrote:
like you I started programming in 1970
Oh, I don't go that far back; I started in 1983, on a PDP-11. And it was better than the sex I'd had up to that point. But my father was one of those who got to say; "It has 8K of RAM? What are we going to do with all that?"
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yeah - there are lots of engineering grads in financial development - it seems a particularly good match.
It is also the case that many math, science & eng grads found employment as traders and quantitative analysts in the financial services sector. One memorable instance is Robert C Merton, a graduate in Engineering Mathematics, a Nobel prize winner and a co-founder LTCM. I suggest that the dramatic failure of LTCM in 1998 was the bellwether of the current economic shambles, it certainly triggered my divestment of equities in that sector. In more recent times the quants believed they could turn pigs ears (aka sub prime mortgages) into a silk purses (aka mortgage backed derivatives and default credit swaps), and we know where that's got us. As an employer I've found just as many math & science grads have made lousy programmers as have made good programmers. One of the better programmers I've employed has a PhD in Marine Biology, another has degrees in English Medieval History and Italian Renaissance Literature, the latter was employed as a trainee soon after her graduation. I've employed several graduates in the bio & geo sciences, on average I think they've become better programmers than the math, physics and chemistry graduates and just as good as most engineers, the exception being electrical engineers, who generally do better. With respect to CompSci graduates, I look for graduates who've done a double in CompSci and another discipline such as Law, Arts or Politics, I'm not convinced that CompSci faculties give their students reasoning skills as well as some of the more traditional disciplines. Finally the best programmers do not necessarily make the best employees, even in a programming capacity.
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Yes, you need to be good at problem solving AND you need to be humble enough to realize that next time around your code would be even better (hardly any code cannot be improved). Humble part helps you to learn from your own code which is probably best thing. Also improvement never stops. The older you get the better you are. … and you are guessing right – I am pretty old and still have fun so hopefully many of you will have it at my age too :)
t. Hrubik wrote:
The older you get the better you are
Except as far as recruiters are concerned...
Kevin
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When I studied programming in college computers were in there infancy. Basically we were introduced to Data Structures which had been around for a long time and breifly reviewed various languages such as: cobol, fortran, PL/1, Pascal and so on. The professors had there own programming styles and methods for developing using flow charts and top-to-bottom and bottom-to-top methodology. From the statement above I would say that I am self taught and am still learning. Mike
"It doesn't matter how big a ranch ya' own, or how many cows ya' brand, the size of your funeral is still gonna depend on the weather." -Harry Truman.
Semper Fi http://www.hq4thmarinescomm.com[^] My Site
I am an ex-Australian Airforce technician commissioned from the ranks as an Engineering Officer. Was forced into handling large amounts of complex data occasionally needing me to write scripts and routines (funny how the services do that). While teaching myself to program using Visual Basic, I was doing a degree in my own time. Part of my degree included some Software engineering units (NOT BY CHOICE). There was a fair amount of pressure having to turn in one assignment a week (same workload as the full time students). Strangely enough I found I was good at it and actually enjoyed it. This was when universities were teaching PASCAL and C. I found the formal education knocked of the rough edges of what I had taught myself. But you must continue to learn and adapt to knew technology. I would rate it as 75% self taught and 25% educated.
