The Soapbox - an option [modified]
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The Soapbox degenerated into a forum more or less dedicated to US politics and personal bandwagons. It was absolutely pointless to my goal of providing free resources to Software Developers. However, removing it means that I no longer have a place to move inappropriate posts (I always prefer to move than delete) which means I'm going to be spending all my monitoring the lounge. I want to read and enjoy the lounge, not clean up everyone's mess. So how about: 1. I create a new forum 'After 8 Lounge' or something. Anything not PG rated goes there. I do miss bad, politically incorrect jokes. Anything totally inappropriate in either of the lounges gets nuked, zero tolerance. And... 2. I reopen the Soapbox and remove votes and remove the ability for casual members to vote messages off the island. There will be no exposure for the forum (no links from the homepage or menus). The current Soapbox crowd has a private place to vent their spleens. However since many of the members in there are in the US they understand more than anyone the issues of libel laws. We, as a site, cannot promote or implicitely allow anything that violates any of the hate-crime or libel laws. I simply will not allow the site to be legally exposed simply for the sake of a few. So, in order to participate in the Soapbox you will have to agree, with each post, that you are not violating our Terms of Use. Go nuts, but stay within the ropes. Further, I'll ask the Soapbox crowd to nominate a few members who will have the right to delete posts. You guys will have your own self-policed protected corner in which to continue your fun and will yourselves be responsible for ensuring this behaviour is within reason, and that it doesn't spill out on to the rest of the site.
cheers, Chris Maunder CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
modified on Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:43 AM
As a rule, I find the soapbox more interesting than the lounge. However, it seems to me that the SB, by it's nature, has become a breeding place for festering wounds such as CSS and Illion. In my book, if you close it, your only issue is how to deal with the cockroaches that moved into the house while the latrine was uncovered. If they go away, and the more reasonable aspects of the SB can exist on the lounge, or move somewhere less unfettered, then perhaps the site will be better off for it. If CSS starts posting his racist drivel all over the site, and Ilion fills every article with asinine links, then the SB would have been better kept as it was.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
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The main point of the soapbox, historically, is that a place exists to move posts that should not be in the forum that is the public face of the community. The difference between community members having posts deleted and it happening to you, is that you're not a community member. This post is the first attempt at actual discussion I've seen from you in a long time. Usually, you just flood forums with lnks and abuse people who try to discuss them with you. Deleting your posts is an appropriate way for the community to protest such behaviour.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Well said CG
------------------------------------ "May I introduce Blon Fel-Fotch Pasermeer-Day Slitheen from the planet Raxacoricofallapatorious, known by her friends as Margaret" The Doctor
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:thumbsup: There, that's an 'and!
------------------------------------ "May I introduce Blon Fel-Fotch Pasermeer-Day Slitheen from the planet Raxacoricofallapatorious, known by her friends as Margaret" The Doctor
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The Soapbox degenerated into a forum more or less dedicated to US politics and personal bandwagons. It was absolutely pointless to my goal of providing free resources to Software Developers. However, removing it means that I no longer have a place to move inappropriate posts (I always prefer to move than delete) which means I'm going to be spending all my monitoring the lounge. I want to read and enjoy the lounge, not clean up everyone's mess. So how about: 1. I create a new forum 'After 8 Lounge' or something. Anything not PG rated goes there. I do miss bad, politically incorrect jokes. Anything totally inappropriate in either of the lounges gets nuked, zero tolerance. And... 2. I reopen the Soapbox and remove votes and remove the ability for casual members to vote messages off the island. There will be no exposure for the forum (no links from the homepage or menus). The current Soapbox crowd has a private place to vent their spleens. However since many of the members in there are in the US they understand more than anyone the issues of libel laws. We, as a site, cannot promote or implicitely allow anything that violates any of the hate-crime or libel laws. I simply will not allow the site to be legally exposed simply for the sake of a few. So, in order to participate in the Soapbox you will have to agree, with each post, that you are not violating our Terms of Use. Go nuts, but stay within the ropes. Further, I'll ask the Soapbox crowd to nominate a few members who will have the right to delete posts. You guys will have your own self-policed protected corner in which to continue your fun and will yourselves be responsible for ensuring this behaviour is within reason, and that it doesn't spill out on to the rest of the site.
cheers, Chris Maunder CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
modified on Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:43 AM
Assuming you believe the 'Kid Sister Friendly' lounge is necessary, then having an 'Adults Only' lounge would seem to me to be a good idea - although I suspect that would end up being used much more, as it's not only original messages that wish to break kid sistership regs More work - but what about having an option in the profile of whether you want to see 'Adult' content - and having each message reply be abe to be graded (simplest case a checkbox of 'contains adult material' ). So now it is up to the individual whether they want to see potentially offensive material. If a message is posted with incorrect labeling, it ca be changed by moderator(s) which will automatically message the poster telling them of their error in grading their message. So in a thread I might see the original (PG) post followed by some PG replies and a AO reply. If I have opted in to see AO replies, then all would work as is - if not, then I would see the equivalent of the current 'message automatically removed' - but I would at least have the option of changing my setting to allow me to read it (indeed, there cold be a link to read this one message without changing my settings) As for the soapbox. It's a difficult one - and I appreciate the legal ramifications although IANAL. I don't think removing all references to the soapbox will work - you'll end up with more rap in the lounge. Adding a 'Terms of Use' agreement on each post sounds excessive! What's to stop someone posting something libelous to the VB forums? As the number of posts in the soapbox is not huge - how about: 1. Everyone who posts in the soapbox, the first time (or any time they change) has to agree to some terms of use. 2. A small number of moderators are assign rights to delete messages (and child messages) from the soapbox where these messages my compromise CP - but ONLY under those circumstances (i.e. not just because they disagree with the poster) 3. When deleted, messages and all replies are removed, no reference to them is left, and the posters get a personal message telling them that the message has been removed due to a terms of service violation. 4. Discussions will not be entered into - if you think your message should not have been deleted, tough! (this relies on a good set of standards given to moderators). 5. All soapbox messages are deemed Adult Only (as per the ratings mentioned above). So you have to opt-in just to read any messages. My 2c - hopefully helpful.
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Why should I be ware of this guy? (and it's "JSOP", not "JSP")
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
He has an inability to recognise that he is unpopular and wrong, and he will work his best to destroy every forum, we must all stop feeding him!
------------------------------------ "May I introduce Blon Fel-Fotch Pasermeer-Day Slitheen from the planet Raxacoricofallapatorious, known by her friends as Margaret" The Doctor
He's not totally wrong, but he is definitely unpopular. I tried to suggest (in the soapbox) that he a) register with a different user name and b) stop acting like that and just try to get along (starting wit a clean slate, such as it is), and he apparently ignored my advice. I still think voting his posts to be removed is the wrong approach *in the Soapbox*.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
It would be a shame to kill the soapbox because of the actions of a few members
Cheers Garth If Jesus played guitar, he would play it like Clapton and the devil would play it like Hendrix
You can thank the new world order where nobody is to blame and everyone is a victim.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
The difference lies in the way the votes were cast - true It is still debatable whether the message removed link should have been active - true They were done by multiple people - true Went through the proper channels - true What happened on Saturday was a wiping out of posts in a seemingly random fashion - probably true, I'm rubbish at spotting patterns One of my posts was nuked with no vote being cast - true (check my profile if you want proof) This is impossible by normal means - true (marking a message for removal also univotes; thirteen hides the message)
Ilíon wrote:
For months, *my* posts have been vanished in much the same way that "the community's" were vanished yesterday.
False. Yours were done in a more democratic way. Multiple people voted. Not always thirteen, but sufficient enough to ensure that it wasn't just one person making the decisions
Ilíon wrote:
Just what, exactly, was the point of the so-called Soapbox, after all, if that point can be so easily obviated by a few hours of the more obnoxious posters getting a taste of their own medicine?
I'll be honest; I wasn't around to see its creation. However, I always thought of it as a non-kid sister safe alternative to the Lounge, where you (plural) would have the more inane posts shouted down and/or univoted
Once again, little of what you assert is true. That you want to believe (though, you are standing on your head with your eyes crossed, aren't you?) it true is irrelevant to the reality of the situation. Why don't you ask Mr Maunder ... he knows that there was no breaking of these pretend rules; there was no sock-puppetry, not on my part, at any rate; there was no hacking, not on my part, at any rate; there was no writing of some super-duper master-control program, not on my part, at any rate. I suspect that what we witnessed was a "rule" backfiring.
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Well said CG
------------------------------------ "May I introduce Blon Fel-Fotch Pasermeer-Day Slitheen from the planet Raxacoricofallapatorious, known by her friends as Margaret" The Doctor
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He's not totally wrong, but he is definitely unpopular. I tried to suggest (in the soapbox) that he a) register with a different user name and b) stop acting like that and just try to get along (starting wit a clean slate, such as it is), and he apparently ignored my advice. I still think voting his posts to be removed is the wrong approach *in the Soapbox*.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
He's not totally wrong,
Well, no, he's not totally wrong. I mean, considering that he's totally right.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
... but he is definitely unpopular.
There's a point here?
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I tried to suggest ... and he apparently ignored my advice
And he explained to you just why this (ahem) advice was worthless to him.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
I still think voting his posts to be removed is the wrong approach *in the Soapbox*.
It's dishonest; it's bully-boyism.
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Ilíon wrote:
except, of course, that you "community" boys will have to stop acting like school-yard bullies who know that teacher has your back.
If the community loses the ability to respond to bullies like you, then the community loses.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
If the community loses the ability to respond to bullies like you, then the community loses.
What a hypocrite you are! But then, we've both long understood that. It seems that "the community" has turned, or been turned, on itself. And you don't like that; but you had no problem at all with doing it to me.
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As a rule, I find the soapbox more interesting than the lounge. However, it seems to me that the SB, by it's nature, has become a breeding place for festering wounds such as CSS and Illion. In my book, if you close it, your only issue is how to deal with the cockroaches that moved into the house while the latrine was uncovered. If they go away, and the more reasonable aspects of the SB can exist on the lounge, or move somewhere less unfettered, then perhaps the site will be better off for it. If CSS starts posting his racist drivel all over the site, and Ilion fills every article with asinine links, then the SB would have been better kept as it was.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.
Christian Graus wrote:
the more reasonable aspects of the SB can exist on the lounge
From what some folks have been saying, the idea of moving political, economic, religious, or meterological discussions to the Lounge would, in and of itself, pollute it. :sigh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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The Soapbox degenerated into a forum more or less dedicated to US politics and personal bandwagons. It was absolutely pointless to my goal of providing free resources to Software Developers. However, removing it means that I no longer have a place to move inappropriate posts (I always prefer to move than delete) which means I'm going to be spending all my monitoring the lounge. I want to read and enjoy the lounge, not clean up everyone's mess. So how about: 1. I create a new forum 'After 8 Lounge' or something. Anything not PG rated goes there. I do miss bad, politically incorrect jokes. Anything totally inappropriate in either of the lounges gets nuked, zero tolerance. And... 2. I reopen the Soapbox and remove votes and remove the ability for casual members to vote messages off the island. There will be no exposure for the forum (no links from the homepage or menus). The current Soapbox crowd has a private place to vent their spleens. However since many of the members in there are in the US they understand more than anyone the issues of libel laws. We, as a site, cannot promote or implicitely allow anything that violates any of the hate-crime or libel laws. I simply will not allow the site to be legally exposed simply for the sake of a few. So, in order to participate in the Soapbox you will have to agree, with each post, that you are not violating our Terms of Use. Go nuts, but stay within the ropes. Further, I'll ask the Soapbox crowd to nominate a few members who will have the right to delete posts. You guys will have your own self-policed protected corner in which to continue your fun and will yourselves be responsible for ensuring this behaviour is within reason, and that it doesn't spill out on to the rest of the site.
cheers, Chris Maunder CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
modified on Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:43 AM
When I was a kid there was a rule at home that if I fought with a friend over a toy neither of us got to play with it and I would get it back when Mum or Dad decided it was time. Why not close the SB, remove all evidence of it and recreate it in a few months once everyone has either settled down a bit or moved on to some of the many other forums out there that are geared towards that kind of behavior.
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When I was a kid there was a rule at home that if I fought with a friend over a toy neither of us got to play with it and I would get it back when Mum or Dad decided it was time. Why not close the SB, remove all evidence of it and recreate it in a few months once everyone has either settled down a bit or moved on to some of the many other forums out there that are geared towards that kind of behavior.
Why not just be honest about the matter? Why not stop protecting certain delicate persons or fragile opinions ... that is, let the so-called Soapbox be what it is claimed to be? Or, why not just openly admit that only certain members and/or only certain opinions are allowed there?
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Christian Graus wrote:
the more reasonable aspects of the SB can exist on the lounge
From what some folks have been saying, the idea of moving political, economic, religious, or meterological discussions to the Lounge would, in and of itself, pollute it. :sigh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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Computafreak wrote:
We need an air strike
I love the smell of napalm on a Sunday afternoon. :laugh:
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.
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The Soapbox degenerated into a forum more or less dedicated to US politics and personal bandwagons. It was absolutely pointless to my goal of providing free resources to Software Developers. However, removing it means that I no longer have a place to move inappropriate posts (I always prefer to move than delete) which means I'm going to be spending all my monitoring the lounge. I want to read and enjoy the lounge, not clean up everyone's mess. So how about: 1. I create a new forum 'After 8 Lounge' or something. Anything not PG rated goes there. I do miss bad, politically incorrect jokes. Anything totally inappropriate in either of the lounges gets nuked, zero tolerance. And... 2. I reopen the Soapbox and remove votes and remove the ability for casual members to vote messages off the island. There will be no exposure for the forum (no links from the homepage or menus). The current Soapbox crowd has a private place to vent their spleens. However since many of the members in there are in the US they understand more than anyone the issues of libel laws. We, as a site, cannot promote or implicitely allow anything that violates any of the hate-crime or libel laws. I simply will not allow the site to be legally exposed simply for the sake of a few. So, in order to participate in the Soapbox you will have to agree, with each post, that you are not violating our Terms of Use. Go nuts, but stay within the ropes. Further, I'll ask the Soapbox crowd to nominate a few members who will have the right to delete posts. You guys will have your own self-policed protected corner in which to continue your fun and will yourselves be responsible for ensuring this behaviour is within reason, and that it doesn't spill out on to the rest of the site.
cheers, Chris Maunder CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
modified on Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:43 AM
I stopped visiting the soapbox some years ago when a particularly nasty exchange created tension that crossed over into other forums. At one point the lounge got so bad, I stopped visiting this site for a while and almost pulled all my articles. My own preference is that the Soapbox be removed entirely and offending posts elsewhere simply be nuked. There are plenty of other places on the internet for people to spew their vile; let them do it there.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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The Soapbox degenerated into a forum more or less dedicated to US politics and personal bandwagons. It was absolutely pointless to my goal of providing free resources to Software Developers. However, removing it means that I no longer have a place to move inappropriate posts (I always prefer to move than delete) which means I'm going to be spending all my monitoring the lounge. I want to read and enjoy the lounge, not clean up everyone's mess. So how about: 1. I create a new forum 'After 8 Lounge' or something. Anything not PG rated goes there. I do miss bad, politically incorrect jokes. Anything totally inappropriate in either of the lounges gets nuked, zero tolerance. And... 2. I reopen the Soapbox and remove votes and remove the ability for casual members to vote messages off the island. There will be no exposure for the forum (no links from the homepage or menus). The current Soapbox crowd has a private place to vent their spleens. However since many of the members in there are in the US they understand more than anyone the issues of libel laws. We, as a site, cannot promote or implicitely allow anything that violates any of the hate-crime or libel laws. I simply will not allow the site to be legally exposed simply for the sake of a few. So, in order to participate in the Soapbox you will have to agree, with each post, that you are not violating our Terms of Use. Go nuts, but stay within the ropes. Further, I'll ask the Soapbox crowd to nominate a few members who will have the right to delete posts. You guys will have your own self-policed protected corner in which to continue your fun and will yourselves be responsible for ensuring this behaviour is within reason, and that it doesn't spill out on to the rest of the site.
cheers, Chris Maunder CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
modified on Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:43 AM
An excellent plan, Chris. Although I seldom waste my time there since the original degenerated into a childrens' namecalling forum, the concept of the Soapbox was a great one, and I much appreciate a bit of healthy anarchy in a world grown too controlled. I would add the suggestion that participation in the Soapbox be limited to those who have been around long enough to understand how we operate here. Whether that is measured by longevity or a minimum number of posts in the other forums, some minimum requirement should be imposed to stop the asinine first-post abusers and grazing trolls.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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The difference lies in the way the votes were cast - true It is still debatable whether the message removed link should have been active - true They were done by multiple people - true Went through the proper channels - true What happened on Saturday was a wiping out of posts in a seemingly random fashion - probably true, I'm rubbish at spotting patterns One of my posts was nuked with no vote being cast - true (check my profile if you want proof) This is impossible by normal means - true (marking a message for removal also univotes; thirteen hides the message)
Ilíon wrote:
For months, *my* posts have been vanished in much the same way that "the community's" were vanished yesterday.
False. Yours were done in a more democratic way. Multiple people voted. Not always thirteen, but sufficient enough to ensure that it wasn't just one person making the decisions
Ilíon wrote:
Just what, exactly, was the point of the so-called Soapbox, after all, if that point can be so easily obviated by a few hours of the more obnoxious posters getting a taste of their own medicine?
I'll be honest; I wasn't around to see its creation. However, I always thought of it as a non-kid sister safe alternative to the Lounge, where you (plural) would have the more inane posts shouted down and/or univoted
Computafreak wrote:
I wasn't around to see its creation
I was.
Computafreak wrote:
I always thought of it as a non-kid sister safe alternative to the Lounge, where you (plural) would have the more inane posts shouted down and/or univoted
Correct. Except that, until two or three years ago we didn't have such a volume of morons. Although crude language and weird ideas were common, thoughtful and responsible discussions usually ensued. There were occasional flamewars, but they were rare. As in monthly, not daily. If things got too boring, some of us would meet elsewhere, coordinate a sequence of outrageous posts intended to spark discussion, then launch our attack and enjoy the subsequent donnybrook. Few people got their feelings hurt, and none were slandered, as the crowd then was comprised of gentlemen (and ladies) who were respectful of those with whom they disagreed. Perhaps we need a new member ranking method, one which tallies the number of '1' votes received in a period of time. Anyone who garners more than the limit might be deemed unsuitable for membership in the community and banned. In any social group there are those who join to build, and those who circle the dark perimeter looking for an opportunity to destroy what they crave but can never deserve. They're scavengers and parasites, degenerates who want to break the other kids' toys. Most natural groupings have developed ways of removing parasites. Fish rub against ship hulls to scrape off parasitic growths, buffaloes have birds that pick parasites from their backs, monkeys groom each other to remove pests. Why shouldn't we do the same?
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
