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  4. Washington Post: HOLMES: U.S. backtracks on missile shield

Washington Post: HOLMES: U.S. backtracks on missile shield

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  • C Christian Graus

    I am pleased to see that you're actually discussing things around here nowadays. I don't want that to sound patronising, I don't expect you to care what I think, but it still makes me glad.

    Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

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    Ilion
    wrote on last edited by
    #39

    Christian Graus wrote:

    ... I don't expect you to care what I think, ...

    "What is different about this night from all other nights?"

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    • O Oakman

      Bob Emmett wrote:

      Presumably these are citizens of the USA? Everyone else seems to want either your money or your lives.

      Germany and the UK are paid around 3 billion a year as rent for the American bases in their country. The payrolls for the locals in those two countries alone are gi-normous and the amount of money the American GI spends locally has a major impact on the local economy. The primary purpose of those bases, or so I am told, is to protect the UK and Germany from those countries which might wish to do one or both of them, harm. Of course the love and undying gratitude of the average Brit or German and the total lack of any anti-American prejudice shown to our tourists more than makes up for our investment.

      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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      Lost User
      wrote on last edited by
      #40

      Oakman wrote:

      Germany and the UK are paid around 3 billion a year as rent for the American bases in their country.

      Seems fair. How much would the USA have to be paid to allow armed foreign nationals on its soil?

      Oakman wrote:

      The primary purpose of those bases, or so I am told, is to protect the UK and Germany from those countries which might wish to do one or both of them, harm.

      I suspect that they must be a benefit to the USA. No countries act out of altruism (alas).

      Oakman wrote:

      the love and undying gratitude of the average Brit

      Oh, come on - WW2 has long faded from the national consciousness. (Oiks seem to think it was just England vs Germany.)

      Oakman wrote:

      total lack of any anti-American prejudice shown to our tourists

      Englishmen: "they inherit from their fathers, an unreasonable prejudice against all nations under the sun; ... characterized by opprobrious epithet; such as a chattering Frenchman, an Italian ape, a German hog, and a beastly Dutchman; nay, their national prepossession is maintained even against those people with whom they are united ...". Tobias Smollett in 1753

      Bob Emmett

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      • L Lost User

        IlĂ­on wrote:

        "Fotress America" is not viable.

        Why not? Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

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        Stan Shannon
        wrote on last edited by
        #41

        Mike Mullikin wrote:

        Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

        That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

        Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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        • S Stan Shannon

          Mike Mullikin wrote:

          Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

          That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

          Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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          Ilion
          wrote on last edited by
          #42

          Nor, at present, snuggled right into Uncle Sam's armpit, as Canada is, the need.

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          • S Stan Shannon

            Mike Mullikin wrote:

            Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

            That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

            Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #43

            This, Stan, probably causes you some displeasure US health system is plagued by high cost and waste: experts [^]. In light of that article, perhaps Canada isn't all bad.

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            • L Lost User

              73Zeppelin wrote:

              In other words, if Iran fires a missile at Europe, it's Europe's problem, not America's...

              Agreed. In fact, I'd take it even further and pull ALL U.S. military personnel, hardware and bases from all foreign countries - Japan, South Korea, Germany, UK, etc... All of it comes home and defends our ports and borders.

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              Lost User
              wrote on last edited by
              #44

              How about things like this Pine Gap[^]?

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              • L Lost User

                How about things like this Pine Gap[^]?

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                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #45

                If it's truly a joint venture then let the Aussies buy our half and run it themselves. If they refuse, we should take our half of the equipment when we leave. It is long past time for the US to get out of the "World Police" business.

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                • S Stan Shannon

                  Mike Mullikin wrote:

                  Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

                  That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

                  Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                  Lost User
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #46

                  Nor do we with our growing welfare state.

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                  • L Lost User

                    If it's truly a joint venture then let the Aussies buy our half and run it themselves. If they refuse, we should take our half of the equipment when we leave. It is long past time for the US to get out of the "World Police" business.

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                    Lost User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #47

                    Mike Mullikin wrote:

                    "World Police" business

                    I rather suspect it is for the same reason that BMEWS at RAF Fylingdales exists. Not as a "World Policeman" but as a means for mutual defence. But since the end of the cold war, it is arguable that a need still exists, those Russians have not yet reached IMO the status of trustworthy friend.

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                    • L Lost User

                      If it's truly a joint venture then let the Aussies buy our half and run it themselves. If they refuse, we should take our half of the equipment when we leave. It is long past time for the US to get out of the "World Police" business.

                      L Offline
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                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #48

                      Mike Mullikin wrote:

                      If it's truly a joint venture then let the Aussies buy our half and run it themselves. If they refuse, we should take our half of the equipment when we leave. It is long past time for the US to get out of the "World Police" business.

                      I'm not aware of who owns which assets there but the point I wanted to make is that there must be some advantage to the US in having access to that facility. I can't imagine that the US presence there is solely for the benefit of Australia. Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security? We also have the Parkes Observatory[^] used by NASA

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                      • L Lost User

                        Mike Mullikin wrote:

                        If it's truly a joint venture then let the Aussies buy our half and run it themselves. If they refuse, we should take our half of the equipment when we leave. It is long past time for the US to get out of the "World Police" business.

                        I'm not aware of who owns which assets there but the point I wanted to make is that there must be some advantage to the US in having access to that facility. I can't imagine that the US presence there is solely for the benefit of Australia. Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security? We also have the Parkes Observatory[^] used by NASA

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                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #49

                        Josh Gray wrote:

                        Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security?

                        Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense? If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

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                        • L Lost User

                          Josh Gray wrote:

                          Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security?

                          Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense? If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

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                          Lost User
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #50

                          Mike Mullikin wrote:

                          Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense?

                          Probably

                          Mike Mullikin wrote:

                          If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

                          Oh FFS

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                          • L Lost User

                            Nor do we with our growing welfare state.

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                            Stan Shannon
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #51

                            I agree completely. But thats an argument againt the welfare state, not the military.

                            Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

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                            • L Lost User

                              Oakman wrote:

                              By the way, at least in theory, the U.S Government does not make economic investments but leaves that to private companies.

                              This is as true today as it was when Britain militarily protected its interests around the globe in those Empire days. And in respect of Washington's comments, if you are not seen to be protecting your foreign assets then those assets may be seized with you being unable to suitably respond to rectify the seizure. To protect the interests of Haliburton you might indeed find distasteful or unappetizing or even objectionable but if that company is a source of revenue that your government can tax then protection of that revenue stream could be as important to the American Government as Hong Kong (Opium Wars) was to the then British Empire.

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                              Oakman
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #52

                              Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                              This is as true today as it was when Britain militarily protected its interests around the globe in those Empire days.

                              Oh, back then both countries and at least half of Western Europe practiced gunboat diplomacy.

                              Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                              if you are not seen to be protecting your foreign assets then those assets may be seized with you being unable to suitably respond to rectify the seizure.

                              For better or for worse, neither country is self-sure enough these days to reclaim assets taken by jolly jumpup Beloved Leaders. Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi all own oil production facilities started by the UK and US and we have done thing about it.

                              Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                              if that company is a source of revenue that your government can tax then protection of that revenue stream could be as important to the American Government as Hong Kong (Opium Wars) was to the then British Empire

                              These days the largest corporations seem to be costing us money, not providing it. However, if they need protection, I am sure Blackwater would be glad to provide it. Many of their employees are ex-Green Beanies or SAS and are paid commensurately with the risk involved. Better their blood be spilled, if blood must be spilled, than that of some 19 year old pimple-face who thought he'd make a little extra dough by joining the National Guard.

                              Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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                              • L Lost User

                                This, Stan, probably causes you some displeasure US health system is plagued by high cost and waste: experts [^]. In light of that article, perhaps Canada isn't all bad.

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                                Stan Shannon
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #53

                                Which is an argument for returning to a true free market health care system.

                                Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                                L 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • S Stan Shannon

                                  Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                  Canada doesn't have 100's of thousands of troops and billions of dollars of equipment spread all over the world defending ungrateful weasels and they seem to be getting along just fine.

                                  That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

                                  Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

                                  O Offline
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                                  Oakman
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #54

                                  Stan Shannon wrote:

                                  That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

                                  It's also because they are almost totally dependent on the US for defense against any serious threat.

                                  Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

                                  S 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • L Lost User

                                    Josh Gray wrote:

                                    Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security?

                                    Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense? If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

                                    O Offline
                                    O Offline
                                    Oakman
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #55

                                    Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                    Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense?

                                    Of course not, they expect us to do it for them and pay them for the privilege. I'm not faulting the Aussies. They've got a good thing going, but we're the ones who set it up and we're the ones who act like it's a matter of national security to police the entire world.

                                    Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

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                                    • L Lost User

                                      Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                      "World Police" business

                                      I rather suspect it is for the same reason that BMEWS at RAF Fylingdales exists. Not as a "World Policeman" but as a means for mutual defence. But since the end of the cold war, it is arguable that a need still exists, those Russians have not yet reached IMO the status of trustworthy friend.

                                      O Offline
                                      O Offline
                                      Oakman
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #56

                                      Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                      Not as a "World Policeman" but as a means for mutual defence.

                                      With all due respect for the UK, exactly how much defending of the US can we count on?

                                      Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                      those Russians have not yet reached IMO the status of trustworthy friend.

                                      They haven't yet reached the status of civilized nation, have they? The new Russia seems to be ruled by thugs from the NKVD who were smart enough to become crime lords before their friends did.

                                      Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

                                      L 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • O Oakman

                                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                        This is as true today as it was when Britain militarily protected its interests around the globe in those Empire days.

                                        Oh, back then both countries and at least half of Western Europe practiced gunboat diplomacy.

                                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                        if you are not seen to be protecting your foreign assets then those assets may be seized with you being unable to suitably respond to rectify the seizure.

                                        For better or for worse, neither country is self-sure enough these days to reclaim assets taken by jolly jumpup Beloved Leaders. Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi all own oil production facilities started by the UK and US and we have done thing about it.

                                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                        if that company is a source of revenue that your government can tax then protection of that revenue stream could be as important to the American Government as Hong Kong (Opium Wars) was to the then British Empire

                                        These days the largest corporations seem to be costing us money, not providing it. However, if they need protection, I am sure Blackwater would be glad to provide it. Many of their employees are ex-Green Beanies or SAS and are paid commensurately with the risk involved. Better their blood be spilled, if blood must be spilled, than that of some 19 year old pimple-face who thought he'd make a little extra dough by joining the National Guard.

                                        Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

                                        L Offline
                                        L Offline
                                        Lost User
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #57

                                        Oakman wrote:

                                        Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi all own oil production facilities started by the UK and US and we have done thing about it

                                        I'll not comment about Mexico, but, if it wasn't for the influence of the then Soviet Union (and now Russia) I'm pretty sure that Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and other countries that continue to taunt, would be suitably controlled. And Britain would still have ownership of the Suez Canal. But with a policy to permit independence for the former Empire countries to manage and rule themselves, we can't now really complain if they so choose to form friends elsewhere and stick up 2 fingers to their former colonial masters.

                                        Oakman wrote:

                                        Blackwater

                                        Wild Geese never really solved anything, not in real life nor in the Richard Burton film of the same name. They just created more problems and complicated issues.

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                                        • O Oakman

                                          Mike Mullikin wrote:

                                          Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense?

                                          Of course not, they expect us to do it for them and pay them for the privilege. I'm not faulting the Aussies. They've got a good thing going, but we're the ones who set it up and we're the ones who act like it's a matter of national security to police the entire world.

                                          Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

                                          L Offline
                                          L Offline
                                          Lost User
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #58

                                          Oakman wrote:

                                          Of course not, they expect us to do it for them and pay them for the privilege.

                                          Do we? Can you actually show some evidence of this or it is just an assumption? Seems to me there is a lot of mutual benefit in us sharing access to the Pine Ridge installation. A few highlights from the Wikipedia article Pine Gap was set aside for the United States Air Force's control station for Defense Support Program satellites that monitor heat emissions from missiles, giving first warning of ballistic missile launches. He described the CIA-run facility as the ground control and processing station for geosynchronous satellites engaged in signals intelligence collection, outlining four categories of signals collected: * telemetry from advanced weapons development, such as ballistic missiles, used for arms control verification; * signals from anti-missile and anti-aircraft radars; * transmissions intended for communications satellites; and * microwave emissions, such as long distance telephone calls. My personal favorite In 1999, with the Australian Government refusing to give details to an Australian Senate committee on treaties, Intelligence expert Professor Des Ball from the Australian National University was called to give an outline of Pine Gap Seems to me its important to someone. Trust me, not many people would want to live out there by choice. If you guys dont want it we could always give it back to the "Traditional Land Owners" :)

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