Washington Post: HOLMES: U.S. backtracks on missile shield

[Lost User]

Josh Gray wrote:

Surely the ability to control satellites from the southern hemisphere is an important part of your national security?

Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense? If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

[Lost User]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense?

Probably

Mike Mullikin wrote:

If we aren't defending/policing the world our requirements are significantly reduced.

Oh FFS

[Stan Shannon]

I agree completely. But thats an argument againt the welfare state, not the military.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

This is as true today as it was when Britain militarily protected its interests around the globe in those Empire days.

Oh, back then both countries and at least half of Western Europe practiced gunboat diplomacy.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

if you are not seen to be protecting your foreign assets then those assets may be seized with you being unable to suitably respond to rectify the seizure.

For better or for worse, neither country is self-sure enough these days to reclaim assets taken by jolly jumpup Beloved Leaders. Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi all own oil production facilities started by the UK and US and we have done thing about it.

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

if that company is a source of revenue that your government can tax then protection of that revenue stream could be as important to the American Government as Hong Kong (Opium Wars) was to the then British Empire

These days the largest corporations seem to be costing us money, not providing it. However, if they need protection, I am sure Blackwater would be glad to provide it. Many of their employees are ex-Green Beanies or SAS and are paid commensurately with the risk involved. Better their blood be spilled, if blood must be spilled, than that of some 19 year old pimple-face who thought he'd make a little extra dough by joining the National Guard.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Stan Shannon]

Which is an argument for returning to a true free market health care system.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Oakman]

Stan Shannon wrote:

That's because they no longer have the financial ability to field an army thanks to their social welfare state.

It's also because they are almost totally dependent on the US for defense against any serious threat.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

Does Australia require the control of satellites from the Northern hemisphere for proper defense?

Of course not, they expect us to do it for them and pay them for the privilege. I'm not faulting the Aussies. They've got a good thing going, but we're the ones who set it up and we're the ones who act like it's a matter of national security to police the entire world.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Oakman]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

Not as a "World Policeman" but as a means for mutual defence.

With all due respect for the UK, exactly how much defending of the US can we count on?

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

those Russians have not yet reached IMO the status of trustworthy friend.

They haven't yet reached the status of civilized nation, have they? The new Russia seems to be ruled by thugs from the NKVD who were smart enough to become crime lords before their friends did.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

Venezuela, Mexico and Saudi all own oil production facilities started by the UK and US and we have done thing about it

I'll not comment about Mexico, but, if it wasn't for the influence of the then Soviet Union (and now Russia) I'm pretty sure that Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and other countries that continue to taunt, would be suitably controlled. And Britain would still have ownership of the Suez Canal. But with a policy to permit independence for the former Empire countries to manage and rule themselves, we can't now really complain if they so choose to form friends elsewhere and stick up 2 fingers to their former colonial masters.

Oakman wrote:

Blackwater

Wild Geese never really solved anything, not in real life nor in the Richard Burton film of the same name. They just created more problems and complicated issues.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

Of course not, they expect us to do it for them and pay them for the privilege.

Do we? Can you actually show some evidence of this or it is just an assumption? Seems to me there is a lot of mutual benefit in us sharing access to the Pine Ridge installation. A few highlights from the Wikipedia article Pine Gap was set aside for the United States Air Force's control station for Defense Support Program satellites that monitor heat emissions from missiles, giving first warning of ballistic missile launches. He described the CIA-run facility as the ground control and processing station for geosynchronous satellites engaged in signals intelligence collection, outlining four categories of signals collected: * telemetry from advanced weapons development, such as ballistic missiles, used for arms control verification; * signals from anti-missile and anti-aircraft radars; * transmissions intended for communications satellites; and * microwave emissions, such as long distance telephone calls. My personal favorite In 1999, with the Australian Government refusing to give details to an Australian Senate committee on treaties, Intelligence expert Professor Des Ball from the Australian National University was called to give an outline of Pine Gap Seems to me its important to someone. Trust me, not many people would want to live out there by choice. If you guys dont want it we could always give it back to the "Traditional Land Owners" :)

[Stan Shannon]

Oakman wrote:

It's also because they are almost totally dependent on the US for defense against any serious threat.

Absolutely. It should be interesting to see what happens after the US social welfare state eliminates that protection for them. I suspect the "Original Nations" or whatever they call their Indians up there, will just kick their asses and take over again.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

From what I can see that ship has already sailed.

[Lost User]

IMO if the system used in the United States was more equal it would be more just and might just have universal beneficial effects. As such, a true market healthcare system is as attainable as Perfect Capitalism (that's capitalism without those periodic financial crisis) and, in my view, that can't happen.

[Lost User]

Oakman wrote:

With all due respect for the UK, exactly how much defending of the US can we count on?

If Britain wasn't fully committed to come when called, then Gulf War I and Gulf War II and post 9/11 into Afganistan would not have seen any kind of support from Britain. In fact, after 9/11, we came before you asked!

Oakman wrote:

status of civilized nation

True, very true.

[Chris Austin]

Didn't congress recently (sometime during the 'W' years) overturn a pentagon directed closure of a base in Puerto Rico? Wasn't the reasoning basically that they needed the income from the base to support a portion of the local economy? It's insanely frustrating.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Lost User]

Josh Gray wrote:

Oh FFS

Why FFS? If the US keeps its nose out of other nation's affairs and requires its military only to defend its own borders (like nearly every other nation) then we need less military (soldiers & weaponry) than we have today. No?

[Stan Shannon]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

From what I can see that ship has already sailed.

I agree. But all the better - its an overcrowed, unsound vessel, so it will soon sink and take most with it. Good riddance to them all...

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Chris Austin]

Richard A. Abbott wrote:

If Britain wasn't fully committed to come when called, then Gulf War I and Gulf War II and post 9/11 into Afganistan would not have seen any kind of support from Britain. In fact, after 9/11, we came before you asked!

I absolutely agree with you. It seemed, before our civilian leadership decided that Iraq needed to be liberated, NATO was ready to bring hell to anybody who wanted a piece of it.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Oakman]

Josh Gray wrote:

Seems to me there is a lot of mutual benefit in us sharing access to the Pine Ridge installation

Josh, you're defending Oz against an attack that never happened. I didn't say that the Spooks R Us branch of the US government were providing a service out of the goodness of their hearts. They obviously think its worthwhile to maintain Pine Ridge. However, if we stopped worrying about the South Pacific, we could go home. The Oz could either pay the full freight or, as you say, give it back to the indigenes. AFAIK, Australia does not maintain any similar looking-posts in the North Pacific - while the US does. AFAIK, Australia does not maintain any looking posts in the South Atlantic, but the US does. etc. Out of some idiotic belief that we are supposed to be the policeman of the world. X| OZ is much smarter. You guys cooperate with us in your neck of the woods, maintain a much smaller armed forces than you would if SEATO didn't guarantee that the US would react to any attack on Australia, and generally let us take point while you open the beer. The only point I was making was that if the US decided to pull back its forces and focus on North America in exactly the same manner that Australia minds its own business, then the US would be better off. The icing on the cake for you guys is that we would get caught up in idiocies in the middle east that we kept black mailing you into sending a battalion over to make it look like we weren't alone.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Algoraphobia: An exaggerated fear of the outside world rooted in the belief that one might spontaneously combust due to global warming.

[Lost User]

Mike Mullikin wrote:

Why FFS?

Because I dont imagine that our discussion will be worthwhile as you seem to have what I consider to be an overly simplistic view. Sorry if I appeared rude, it was not my intention. I find the attitude that many Americans have of yourselves being the World Police offensive.

Mike Mullikin wrote:

If the US keeps its nose out of other nation's affairs and requires its military only to defend its own borders (like nearly every other nation) then we need less military (soldiers & weaponry) than we have today. No?

In an ideal world perhaps. In the real world some presence in other countries is required for your own defense. The example of Pine Gap that I gave earlier is an example of this.