Children of the State

[Christian Graus]

Oakman wrote:

That's pretty much the standard for homeschooling vs. public schools

Seems possible. I mean, having a private tutor who is not family would do the same thing, surely.

Oakman wrote:

The primary reason is to insure that the kids get a great education

OK, so see my other comments re: this. You're saying the US school system is fundamentally broken and people forced to rely on it, are doomed to ignorance ? Also, I am repeating what I've been told by Americans here, not saying I am right, but I'm not basing my views on some outsider viewing of a few news stories.

Oakman wrote:

I suspect you have hit the nail on the head

Yes, in this case, I have no doubt. And that's what interests me about this most, is that Mike implies that this is a case of the state interfering with what the parents want, and that is plainly not the case.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Gary Kirkham wrote:

Is that what you meant to write?

I expect so. They don't teach evolution, they skip it.

Gary Kirkham wrote:

I have been with them through their pain and have seen how the courts have stacked the deck against them.

Yeah, the system sucks that way. I know a guy in the US who has sole custody of his kids and I can only assume is ex is at least as screwed up as he claims, for him to pull that off.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

You're saying the US school system is fundamentally broken and people forced to rely on it, are doomed to ignorance ?

No, I am saying that the system is breaking down, because, in part due to a lack of funding, and, in part, because of a takeover of the public schools by a union more interested in its members than their mission, and, in part, by an influx of kids from social backgrounds that do not respect the educational process or the educated, and in part by a teaching philosophy that cares more about not hurting the kids feelings than in insuring that they receive an education. There are lots of ways around the problem and some folks choose home-schooling. It's terribly elitist, as any left-thinking bureacrat will tell you, as are alternate schools, private schools, etc. So? As to people being doomed, how is it any different than the people in your area who cannot afford to pull their kids out of the school you say prepares them for welare? People make their own doom.

Christian Graus wrote:

Mike implies that this is a case of the state interfering with what the parents want

It is making a choice. The parents, or one of them, may have forced it to that point, but still it is choosing, and by choosing a moribund educational system, it sets a bad precedent. Judges need to learn that there are things that can't be litgated.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Christian Graus]

Oakman wrote:

As to people being doomed, how is it any different than the people in your area who cannot afford to pull their kids out of the school you say prepares them for welare? People make their own doom.

Well, the issue is that those kids are already doomed, because the contempt they hold the school system in, and the attitude of a life on welfare, is already ingrained in them at home. You seem to be saying that largely the same thing is happening in the USA.

Oakman wrote:

Judges need to learn that there are things that can't be litgated.

The judge is being forced to litigate, forced to choose one or the other. That he chose what he did may represent all sorts of things, but he didn't choose to litigate this issue.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

The judge is being forced to litigate, forced to choose one or the other. That he chose what he did may represent all sorts of things, but he didn't choose to litigate this issue.

He needs to learn to say, "no."

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Gary Kirkham wrote:

Is that what you meant to write?

I should have said fundamentalist and not picked on one religion. But in this country, most of the evolution-deniers are Christian, or at least claim to be. In Arabia, not so much. If you thought I was implying that all Christian schools or all Christians were cut from the same cloth, I apologize for leaving my words open to that interpretation

Gary Kirkham wrote:

Unfortunately, dead beat dads seem to get the most press.

well, I won't lose much sleep over them. But I agree that women who will use any thing as a weapon, including their children and the most outrageous lies that could be told are deserving of as much opprobrium

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Shog9 0]

Christian Graus wrote:

2 - some of these parents are, with whatever intention, bringing harm to their kids by failing to teach them the basic skills they will need to nagivate life ?

CG, you sound like you've put a fair bit of thought and effort into giving your kids the education they need. I suspect you would find it quite irritating, if your rulers decided they would no longer give you any say in this. Surely, the cost of the freedom to do well by your own is the freedom of your peers to do poorly on theirs?

Christian Graus wrote:

In any case, if your schools and teachers are so bad, perhaps the problem is that people are not complaining about it ?

Complaining doesn't fix anything. Squeaky wheels get greased, but that doesn't do much when a bearing is failing. And when it comes to doing something... Well, you can stay in the system and try to fix it while accepting that even if you succeed it might be too late to help your own kids, or you can leave. Many parents appear to be quite selfish when this choice comes up... ;-P

[Shog9 0]

Christian Graus wrote:

2 - the main reason for home schooling in the US appears to be to hide children from science.

I've heard that an awful lot, though not as much as the "emotionally stunted for life" bit. Not to sound whiny, but... it's getting stale. I could probably think up some fresh ones if you're interested...?

[Ilion]

Christian Graus wrote:

50 years ago, less child abuse was reported because of the same attitude, ...

What a socialist-totalitarian ass.

[Christian Graus]

Shog9 wrote:

CG, you sound like you've put a fair bit of thought and effort into giving your kids the education they need

Yes, we have.

Shog9 wrote:

I suspect you would find it quite irritating, if your rulers decided they would no longer give you any say in this.

Sure. And I'm not advocating that parents have no say. Indeed, at the core, I am pointing out that Mike's implication is false, the issue here is not that parents get no say, but that the parents disagree and are asking the state to step in.

Shog9 wrote:

Surely, the cost of the freedom to do well by your own is the freedom of your peers to do poorly on theirs?

Well, my right to decide how my kids eat, doesn't give someone else the right to starve their kids to death because they think that people can live on air ( there are people who believe this, BTW ). There comes a time when a child is being harmed, and that's where the state needs to be involved, to protect children. If someone wants to home school their kids to not believe in science, so long as they are teaching them enough to function in society, I don't have a huge problem with it, but, the freedom has to include some standards. School is the law, and if that's the case, the state should also be allowed to define school. That's all I am saying.

Shog9 wrote:

Complaining doesn't fix anything.

Not complaining fixes even less. There's lots of parents in America, you're saying this doesn't have the power to become an issue that politicians will do something about, to get elected ?

Shog9 wrote:

Many parents appear to be quite selfish when this choice comes up...

Sure, I accept that at the end of the day, each parent cares most for their own kids. But, surely it's possible to attack the problem from both ends. I assume the bulk of kids are still in public schools, why are those parents not complaining ? Do they just not care ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Where does that leave the kids ? The father wants them in school, the mother does not. How do they resolve that, if they take it to a judge and he refuses to decide ? He might have forced them into some sort of arbitration, to make them discuss it, that would be acceptable.

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Christian Graus]

Ilíon wrote:

What a socialist-totalitarian ass.

You think my ass is socialist ? Is that good or bad ? Or did I misunderstand you ? Are you really saying that you think child abuse is a good thing, and up to the parents to decide ?

Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista.

[Chris Austin]

Come on man. That's weak sauce. CG is being a man enough to have an opinion that doesn't seem popular in this discussion but he is standing up, making his case and, listening. At least show some respect for yourself and keep the discussion above the 3rd grade.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Chris Austin]

Christian Graus wrote:

Not complaining fixes even less. There's lots of parents in America, you're saying this doesn't have the power to become an issue that politicians will do something about, to get elected ?

It is 'always' an issue. The problem is that big systems like this have a hell of a lot of inertia so to speak. The last decade or so, the solution has been to throw money at it and emphasize standardized testing. I have no doubt the school system will eventually get guided back onto course but it's going to take time.

Christian Graus wrote:

I assume the bulk of kids are still in public schools, why are those parents not complaining ? Do they just not care ?

I am sure they all care. And, I remember many parents complained even when I was in school. Heck, recently in Dallas a group of parents were protesting at a school supernatant's home :) But, positive news like that rarely makes it past the local stuff.

Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --?

[Brady Kelly]

To protect them from Obama's fascist propaganda machine. - Stan :laugh:

[Oakman]

Christian Graus wrote:

Where does that leave the kids ? The father wants them in school, the mother does not. How do they resolve that, if they take it to a judge and he refuses to decide ?

I don't understand why judges should be expected or permitted to enforce their personal prejudices which is pretty much what this guy did. There are laws that require the kids to be schooled somehow. The parents need to start working on that issue - or paying fines for every day there's kids aren't in school. Meanwhile the parents can start political action committees and try to get the law rewritten.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Oakman]

Chris Austin wrote:

CG is being a man enough to have an opinion that doesn't seem popular in this discussion but he is standing up, making his case and, listening

CG is a mensch.

Chris Austin wrote:

At least show some respect for yourself and keep the discussion above the 3rd grade.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

[Stan Shannon]

Christian Graus wrote:

Are you really saying that you think child abuse is a good thing, and up to the parents to decide ?

He is saying that anyone who considers the state inherently superior to the parents in such considerations is, in fact, a socialist ass. There is no amount of child abuse which justifies the creation of a 'federal bureau for child care' which is empowered to ensure that parents are treating their children in accordance with some bureaucratically defined standard of child care. Should local communities have laws that protect children from family violence? Of course. But there is no justification for taking it beyond that. When you do, all you achieve is exchanging the probability of a child being abused by some parent with a completely different probability that the state will fundamentally destroy the basic family unit for an entire society. The vast majority of families do not abuse their children, so it really is none of your concern.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

[Lost User]

Sounds more 'State-ist' than the UK. Our Education Act seems to have been framed so as to encompass private tuition and schooling for the upper classes. So education is compulsory, and must be provided by attendance at school, or otherwise. Home educators make use of the latter clause. Some Local Authorities are helpful and make teaching resources available, others make home ed. as hard as possible. We worked with our LAs, but on our terms. However, when our youngest reached school age (some 17 years ago), we did not notify the LA (done it 3 times - why invite the extra work?). Had he been 'at risk', nobody would have been aware, so Christian is right to worry on that score.

Bob Emmett

[Oakman]

Bob Emmett wrote:

Sounds more 'State-ist' than the UK.

In some ways, it's the People's Republic of Massachusetts, at least until you get out the western part of the state where real New Englanders still live. Most of the rules went into place as a sop to the Teachers' Union when state funded alternative schooling went into affect - which was a huge success and occasioned an immediate full course press by the entire educational industry which was contemplating losing much of its constituency. Many of the most popular alternative schools by the way, were set up by and for the inner city populations. Funny thing how when it comes to your kids, it's fuck politics, give the kid an education time.

Bob Emmett wrote:

Had he been 'at risk', nobody would have been aware, so Christian is right to worry on that score.

Worked for a while as a civilian volunteer ombundsman for the foster child program in Mass. Trust me. Kids are at risk whether they go to public schools, private, alternative or home-based. When there are children going to school wearing long winter pants in June so no-one will see the fresh lashes on their legs - who cares whether they get to study evolution?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface