A Big Win for Obama - but what's the prize?

Rob Graham

I've come to accept that most of the media are hypocrites whose political persuasion colors their reporting (on both sides of the fence, Fox is no better, it just takes the opposite political position from the others). Other nation in general (not just the NATO bunch) hated Bush because he went to war in Iraq without their blessing. Because of that hatred, nothing Bush did was applauded, even when it was the proper thing. Obama benefits from simply being "Not Bush", and is applauded for things Bush was scorned for. Most of our so-called allies have become appeasers in the grand tradition of Neville Chamberlin, preferring endless talk to any concrete action; willing to let problems fester while offering at most polite scoldings. Obviously 911 wasn't enough, it will take a Pearl Harbor event to convince most that we face an implacable enemy that wants us dead. Our erstwhile allies don't believe this, nor do they believe themselves in the line of fire. In some respects, most would like to see us "get our comeuppance". We are viewed as the bully on the schoolyard.

Rob Graham

Oh, I get it Stan. I did say "by any realistic standards" the trip was a failure. That in no way means Obama is being judged by such. The media will not allow him to fail.

Stan Shannon

Rob Graham wrote:

Oh, I get it Stan.

I know. But most will not. If the media says he is successful, he is successful. It is 1984. Now and forever, until enough people finally do get it.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

bulg

Are you talking about.. this[^] missile?

Stan Shannon

Rob Graham wrote:

hated Bush because he went to war in Iraq without their blessing

The only thing I disagree with is that. They hated him because he was a conservative. Iraq merely provided an easy means of focusing that latent hostility. Europeans view traditional American conservatism as a dangerous form of poliltical radicalism. They are far more concerned about it than they are any other possible threat from any other source. Obama represents an America moving sharply towards a Euro-centric political perspective, and that makes them happy.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Bassam Saoud

The truth of the matter is that everyone knows what the problem is and what is needed to get rid of the problem. The thing is the American people made it clear (in the last elections) that their top priority is the economy and that means cutting expenses. "War on terror" is now just another expense. Mr. Obama is just executing what the people want. God bless democracy.

Bassam Saoud

I disagree with you - Europeans want to seperate themseles from US. Doesnt matter who is presisent or what is the american policy, Europe wants loose.

Rob Graham

Bassam Saoud wrote:

top priority is the economy and that means cutting expenses.

The Obama administration is most certainty not doing that. They are cutting Military expenses, but are spending on social welfare like they just won a lottery. That, combined with increasing taxes won't help the economy for long. Wait until the carbon tax passes, followed by making all employer paid health insurance taxable. That's going to leave folks wondering who picked their pocket.

Bassam Saoud

Rob Graham wrote:

The Obama administration is most certainty not doing that. They are cutting Military expenses, but are spending on social welfare like they just won a lottery

and People love it (atleast the folks I know)... there was a poll on CNN that basically says more than 60% approve his job but less then 40% approved the Treasury like he works on his own.

Bassam Saoud

John Carson wrote:

So far noone has died as a result of North Korea's missiles or Iran's nuclear program

I beg to differ Sir !

Stan Shannon

Bassam Saoud wrote:

People love it (atleast the folks I know)... there was a poll on CNN that basically says more than 60% approve

Thats because they don't know how badly they are being lied to yet.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Stan Shannon

Bassam Saoud wrote:

Europe wants loose.

Loose from what? Being rescued from themselves? I think most Americans would be more than happy to do that.

Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.

Oakman

John Carson wrote:

I think the attitude that success constitutes America speaking and the rest of the world jumping into line is what was wrong with the Bush foreign policy

Perhaps so, but if the alternative is Europe speaking and America jumping in line, I know which one I'd prefer. But your comment has me wondering - why when Russia or China acts in a way that can be considered detrimental to world harmony, are they not expected to apologize and spend two years crawling back into France's good graces?

John Carson wrote:

Give it a couple of years to see if those relationships can deliver something concrete.

i.e no help in Afghanistan; no help on the economy, but lots and lots of photo ops during the next two years?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

Rob Graham wrote:

In some respects, most would like to see us "get our comeuppance". We are viewed as the bully on the schoolyard.

I think you are spot on, again. Our "allies" were, on some level, content to see us mired down in a foolish war that once we did not win in six months, we could never win.

Rob Graham wrote:

it will take a Pearl Harbor event to convince most that we face an implacable enemy that wants us dead.

Which one?

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

John Carson wrote:

So far noone has died as a result of North Korea's missiles or Iran's nuclear program

And the man who fell out of a fiftieth floor window was heard to remark on the way down -"Well that was forty floors and no problem yet."

John Carson wrote:

The cold war took a while, but victory was eventually achieved without going to war with the Soviet Union.

And, with the exception of the Iron Lady, the man who did it was vilified by the European press and leaders as "Ronnie Raygun," and everyone on "the" continent mourned the untimely retirment of Jimmy Carter.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

Oakman

I wonder how many people under the age of forty have read 1984 - or even seen the movie.

Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface

_Damian S_

I've done both. As always, the book is better. (Of course, I'm not that far under 40 either.)

Knowledge is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in fruit salad!! Booger Mobile - Camp Quality esCarpade 2010

Tim Craig

Oakman wrote:

Which one?

Stan? :suss:

"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke

I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!!

John Carson

Oakman wrote:

And, with the exception of the Iron Lady, the man who did it was vilified by the European press and leaders as "Ronnie Raygun," and everyone on "the" continent mourned the untimely retirment of Jimmy Carter.

The Soviet Union collapsed under the weight of its economic failures. Reagan happened to be president at the time.

John Carson

John Carson

Stan Shannon wrote:

Obama's policies are indistinquishable from what we were doing before 9/11 - except for being even more timidly subservient.

Of course, in your other posts you will claim that Obama's policies are indistinguishable from Bush's but the left is giving him a free pass.

Stan Shannon wrote:

All that got us was 9/11. It will do so again. And the blood, once again, will be on the hands of people like you, John.

Blood is not completely avoidable. There has been some spilled in Iraq I believe.

John Carson