Keep the pressure up
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
If we hadn't used those nasty pretend torture techniques
Man, you are a hardcore wingnut. There aren't too many of you left you are still in complete denial about torture.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
we would have solved our California problem[^].
Perhaps this story is true, but we will never know for sure. All we have is the word of the people who destroyed all the taped evidence of the interrogations. How convienent!
KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again"
And yet they waterboarded him 183 times. Why should I believe them?
oilFactotum wrote:
Perhaps this story is true, but we will never know for sure.
Would it change your mind if it were? That the lives of possibly thousands of your countrymen were saved by splashing some water in the face of a mass murderer?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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...and keep the horrible acts in the public eye. Impeach Jay Bybee. These techniques are illegal by U.S. statute and international treaty to which the U.S. is a signatory. Bybee attempted to give legal cover to illegal acts, and thus broke the ethical, professional, and legal standards that should govern lawyers. For this, Judge Jay Bybee should be impeached. Congress needs to assert some accountability for these heinous acts.[^]
Did not the chief executive order the killing those poor black youths in the Indian Ocean, so cold hearted? I think that is worse than a Pierre sprits (actually I don't care, but someone will...) Why is not the last "Democrat" administration investigated for is aerial bombing of those poor Yugoslavian’s? What about those poor Chinese who had their embassy bombed during that conflict. What about all those SES's, GS's, E's in the chain of command, aren’t they culpable too(by the way this investigation of the judge is chilling for those who are government employees)? Perhaps it all can be investigated when the socialists lose control. go down this road... and it may turn out poorly. That is why some elected officials in the "developing world" become tyrants, they can never abdicate power, they are riding a raging bull that will gore them if they fall off.
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...and keep the horrible acts in the public eye. Impeach Jay Bybee. These techniques are illegal by U.S. statute and international treaty to which the U.S. is a signatory. Bybee attempted to give legal cover to illegal acts, and thus broke the ethical, professional, and legal standards that should govern lawyers. For this, Judge Jay Bybee should be impeached. Congress needs to assert some accountability for these heinous acts.[^]
Admiral Blair’s private memo[^] - courtesy of the NYT.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Did not the chief executive order the killing those poor black youths in the Indian Ocean, so cold hearted? I think that is worse than a Pierre sprits (actually I don't care, but someone will...) Why is not the last "Democrat" administration investigated for is aerial bombing of those poor Yugoslavian’s? What about those poor Chinese who had their embassy bombed during that conflict. What about all those SES's, GS's, E's in the chain of command, aren’t they culpable too(by the way this investigation of the judge is chilling for those who are government employees)? Perhaps it all can be investigated when the socialists lose control. go down this road... and it may turn out poorly. That is why some elected officials in the "developing world" become tyrants, they can never abdicate power, they are riding a raging bull that will gore them if they fall off.
kmg365 wrote:
That is why some elected officials in the "developing world" become tyrants, they can never abdicate power, they are riding a raging bull that will gore them if they fall off.
They are tyrants because those countries are not governed by the rule of law. Immunizing politicians from legal accounability for their actions is the way to get a dictatorship. Noone is proposing summary executions, merely that the law be allowed to take its normal course.
John Carson
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Admiral Blair’s private memo[^] - courtesy of the NYT.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Is this the section of the article you wished to emphasise?
"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
John Carson
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Is this the section of the article you wished to emphasise?
"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
“The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
None of these reasons have to do with whether what happened was legal or not. Surely you do not agree with Admiral Blair who seems to suggest that the U.S. take a world-wide poll to make sure that everything we do makes us popular?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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John Carson wrote:
“The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
None of these reasons have to do with whether what happened was legal or not. Surely you do not agree with Admiral Blair who seems to suggest that the U.S. take a world-wide poll to make sure that everything we do makes us popular?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
None of these reasons have to do with whether what happened was legal or not. Surely you do not agree with Admiral Blair who seems to suggest that the U.S. take a world-wide poll to make sure that everything we do makes us popular?
You are quite correct that popularity is not the issue here. However, since the Mike Gaskeys of the world don't appear to give a fig for legality and since politics does influence what happens, I don't wish to see the "torture works and is essential" campaign get a completely unopposed run.
John Carson
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Oakman wrote:
None of these reasons have to do with whether what happened was legal or not. Surely you do not agree with Admiral Blair who seems to suggest that the U.S. take a world-wide poll to make sure that everything we do makes us popular?
You are quite correct that popularity is not the issue here. However, since the Mike Gaskeys of the world don't appear to give a fig for legality and since politics does influence what happens, I don't wish to see the "torture works and is essential" campaign get a completely unopposed run.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
since the Mike Gaskeys of the world don't appear to give a fig for legality
I certainly do but what does and does not constitute torture is open to interpretation as you damn well know. waterboarding is not. attaching electrodes to you balls would be, yanking out fingernails would be.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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John Carson wrote:
since the Mike Gaskeys of the world don't appear to give a fig for legality
I certainly do but what does and does not constitute torture is open to interpretation as you damn well know. waterboarding is not. attaching electrodes to you balls would be, yanking out fingernails would be.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I certainly do but what does and does not constitute torture is open to interpretation as you damn well know. waterboarding is not. attaching electrodes to you balls would be, yanking out fingernails would be.
The US convicted Japanese soldiers of war crimes for waterboarding. I don't think there is any doubt that it constitutes torture. Claims that it is not are simply a case of the guilty offering the only defence available, in the same way that some undoubted rapists doggedly claim consent. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html[^]
John Carson
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Oakman wrote:
None of these reasons have to do with whether what happened was legal or not. Surely you do not agree with Admiral Blair who seems to suggest that the U.S. take a world-wide poll to make sure that everything we do makes us popular?
You are quite correct that popularity is not the issue here. However, since the Mike Gaskeys of the world don't appear to give a fig for legality and since politics does influence what happens, I don't wish to see the "torture works and is essential" campaign get a completely unopposed run.
John Carson
John Carson wrote:
torture works
It's not an argument that anyone can win. Only folks like Cheney who has protected himself from any kind of pain or danger his whole life would so willingly condemn others to be tortured and to be torturers. As long as American servicemen are in danger of being captured - even by unprincipled thugs like Alqaeda - it is imperative that we eschew it. I find myself in strange agreement with Obama as this shakes out. I do not think that the CIA ops should be prosecuted for doing what they were told they were legally empowered to do. But I do think we should take a look at what those legal opinions were (though, last time I looked, you can't proesecute a lawyer for rendering an opinion) and absolutely, definitely, we need to take a look at those in a position of leadership who either gave the orders or aquieced in the giving of them. This would, of course, include Bush, Cheney and some of their cabinet, but also the Republican and Democratic leaders of the House and Senate and of their respective intelligence committees. (I have already heard John Corradine, now Gov of NJ, loudly proclaim that even though he was on the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time, he never-ever-never heard anything about waterboarding. :laugh: )
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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John Carson wrote:
torture works
It's not an argument that anyone can win. Only folks like Cheney who has protected himself from any kind of pain or danger his whole life would so willingly condemn others to be tortured and to be torturers. As long as American servicemen are in danger of being captured - even by unprincipled thugs like Alqaeda - it is imperative that we eschew it. I find myself in strange agreement with Obama as this shakes out. I do not think that the CIA ops should be prosecuted for doing what they were told they were legally empowered to do. But I do think we should take a look at what those legal opinions were (though, last time I looked, you can't proesecute a lawyer for rendering an opinion) and absolutely, definitely, we need to take a look at those in a position of leadership who either gave the orders or aquieced in the giving of them. This would, of course, include Bush, Cheney and some of their cabinet, but also the Republican and Democratic leaders of the House and Senate and of their respective intelligence committees. (I have already heard John Corradine, now Gov of NJ, loudly proclaim that even though he was on the Senate Intelligence Committee at the time, he never-ever-never heard anything about waterboarding. :laugh: )
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
I find myself in strange agreement with Obama as this shakes out. I do not think that the CIA ops should be prosecuted for doing what they were told they were legally empowered to do. But I do think we should take a look at what those legal opinions were (though, last time I looked, you can't proesecute a lawyer for rendering an opinion) and absolutely, definitely, we need to take a look at those in a position of leadership who either gave the orders or aquieced in the giving of them. This would, of course, include Bush, Cheney and some of their cabinet, but also the Republican and Democratic leaders of the House and Senate and of their respective intelligence committees.
Delighted to hear it.
John Carson