good programmer
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I am a really good fighter pilot - top dog. Holding down a lousy programmer job because I communicate well - one day I WILL FLY!
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Hows about this twisted logic: If you're not good at marketing, you're not good at communicating. If you're not good at communicating, you're never going to understand the user. If you can't understand the user, you're not a very good programmer. Ergo, they're not good programmers.
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Not true. I can communicate very well with users and they with me. Marketing on the other hand is totally different animal. It is basically cold sales calls, even good sales people have trouble marketing themselves, because it is selling yourself. It means putting your self out there to be shot down as someone judges you as incompetent, looking wrong, sounding wrong and every other nasty judgment that can be made. I know some people who aced their interviews and were the lousiest programmers I ever met. They couldn't communicate with users because they never listened except to their own voice! I work well with users because I know how to listen to them, not how to sell them, though I have learned how to do that too - selling the code is much easier then selling the self.
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There is literally tons of misconception regarding the 'Programmer' as a JOB and the 'Programmer' as something OTHER THAN A JOB. The JOB of being a programmer has to do primarily with Results (which translates to Money) and secondarily with skills & knowledge (if you're fortunate to have that kind of boss). The programmer as a hobbyist is primarily about personal development, achievement and self esteem for the sole purpose of either becoming a professional one day or simply to have fun. Nobody says you can't have both but in real life, Work you do in the office (that means, making money for your boss) and Training you do at home and on your own free time (either to get better at your job or if you don't have any social life). The conclusion is that IT in general can be either a tool or a toy. Skills and knowledge by themselves is like having the ability to joggle with shovels. It's very impressive but no matter how many different moves and tricks you can do with them, that just won't cut it if your job is to DIG holes !!! PS: Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results).
"Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results)" Huh, so all excellent programmers are physicists at heart?
"Sir, I protest. I am NOT a merry man!"
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
And what does employment status have to do with someone being a good/great/mediocre programmer? I've seen some great programmers employed as well as unemployed. I've seen just as many living in the US as there are in Europe/Asia... And then there's the question of what defines a good programmer??? What you think defines a good programmer (unemployed) to me means he/she is just unemployed without regard to programming skills. In short, the answer is: 42
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
Back in the 70's when programmers where "Barn Stormers" and Artists you could get away with being unEmployed and free to experiment. These days Programming is like making movies. Have you ever seen a movie with only one person in the credits. This comes best in a work enviroment. This old mans opinion is that you need a good team to build modern software. The team must have people skills, Engineering skills, artists, Programmers, Finance , Ect.. and a team leader to keep all the wheels going.
modified on Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:18 AM
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Hows about this twisted logic: If you're not good at marketing, you're not good at communicating. If you're not good at communicating, you're never going to understand the user. If you can't understand the user, you're not a very good programmer. Ergo, they're not good programmers.
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Flawed logic. A good programmer with poor communication and marketing skills is such a ubiquitous concept it is a stereotype.
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devvvy wrote:
wait... perhaps a simpler example: how do you explain britney, she's (well *was*) in demand.
In some circles she still is. :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesGood grief, guys. These massively flawed analogies are making Aristotle spin in his grave. I understand where you are coming from with the unemployed bit... I miss the early 80s when I used to rush home from Jr high as fast as I could so I could work on bit blitting in assembler on my Tandy 1000. You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point. As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
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I think it's obvious. If you're good, you will be in demand.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "I am new to programming world. I have been learning c# for about past four weeks. I am quite acquainted with the fundamentals of c#. Now I have to work on a project which converts given flat files to XML using the XML serialization method" - SK64 ( but the forums have stuff like this posted every day )
I agree. One might even loose for a worse programmer in a job interview for the lack of marketing skills, but eventually this person will land on a job. A good programmer won't fail everytime. A good programmer is good at logic, and therefore will learn what went wrong in previous interviews and will try to make it better next time.
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Good grief, guys. These massively flawed analogies are making Aristotle spin in his grave. I understand where you are coming from with the unemployed bit... I miss the early 80s when I used to rush home from Jr high as fast as I could so I could work on bit blitting in assembler on my Tandy 1000. You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point. As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
BrienMalone wrote:
As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
I completely agree. I started coding when I was 15 years old. By the age of 21, I had done a lot of coding. But much of this coding was for fun or very small enterprises (Uncle Ben's grocery store). At that time, I thought I was really good and knew everything. My mistake, BIG time. When I landed on my first job in a factory, I got a lot of demands and challenges I never had faced before. That forced me to pursue specific skills, no more kids game. By that time, I knew how much coding skills I lacked. Beeing employed not only made me a much better programmer, also forced me to code continuously wich is very good to gain experience. The only drawback, I think, is less time to learn new technologies and update your skills. I, for example, have little time to catch up with .Net 3.5 and 4.0 features. Fábio
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sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
No, not unless they choose to be...
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"Excellent programmers are out of the job because they try to market their theoretic potential (venture) rather than hard facts (results)" Huh, so all excellent programmers are physicists at heart?
"Sir, I protest. I am NOT a merry man!"
You're right, my apologies, allow me to better rephrase that .. Some programmers who could perform 'Profitably' with their skills have a hard time keeping a job because they try to market their theoretic potential instead of their actual skills. From a Bosses point of view that's just wrong because the JOB of a programmer doesn't lie within the boundaries of experimentation and learning. That's just my point though, nobody has to agree with that ... :|
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Good grief, guys. These massively flawed analogies are making Aristotle spin in his grave. I understand where you are coming from with the unemployed bit... I miss the early 80s when I used to rush home from Jr high as fast as I could so I could work on bit blitting in assembler on my Tandy 1000. You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point. As far as having time to hone your skills goes, the state of unemployment is only useful if you don't have to worry about money. A better environment for honing skills is one where you have a job that presents you with challenging coding opportunities and a manager who protects you from the BS that interferes with your ability to code.
BrienMalone wrote:
You are talking about having time to hone skills. Unfortunately everyone (to this point in the thread) has latched on to "employability" which was not the point.
I was talking about Britney Spears still being popular in some circles. :rolleyes: I didn't think that the subject (Britney that is – let’s not confuse the issue) would arouse such contempt as to be voted down for the statement. Popular or not she apparently still arouses emotions.
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
sometimes i thought to myself, for one to be really good programmer, you need to be unemployed. To get away from daily fire fighting, the long hours, the politics. Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed? (I know one thing they can't be behind bars)
dev
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Your description of Architect, Developer and Programmer roles jibes with what I've found during my 30+ year career. Also, as I remember from the 70's and 80's, Systems Analysts were the Developers of today. And to add my $.02, the title Software Architect is far more meaningful than Software Engineer.
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And you think I wasn't working when I was learning? I run my own company, and believe me it's easily a 60 hour a week job keeping on top of everything... Prior to that I was working full time and learning. No different other than shorter hours, really. If you are tired, you may want to take a step back and look at how your day runs. I've found a decent diet, regular exercise (I run for at least half an hour most days) and better time management makes up for a lot. Even with 2 hrs of commuting a day (which I don't have to do now, thankfully) I was still able to keep learning at quite a rate. If I can do that while coping with a (very regular, unfortunately) 3 day migraine once a month, I'm sure you can find a way somehow. :)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
I run for at least half an hour most days
From what? ;)
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
If I can do that while coping with a (very regular, unfortunately) 3 day migraine once a month, I'm sure you can find a way somehow.
I was going to make a snide remark here but it would probably give you a headache so I won't. :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
I run for at least half an hour most days
From what? ;)
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
If I can do that while coping with a (very regular, unfortunately) 3 day migraine once a month, I'm sure you can find a way somehow.
I was going to make a snide remark here but it would probably give you a headache so I won't. :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesJimmyRopes wrote:
From what?
Anything with big teeth and a bad attitude, generally. ;)
JimmyRopes wrote:
I was going to make a snide remark here but it would probably give you a headache so I won't.
Snide doesn't usually work on me. :)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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JimmyRopes wrote:
From what?
Anything with big teeth and a bad attitude, generally. ;)
JimmyRopes wrote:
I was going to make a snide remark here but it would probably give you a headache so I won't.
Snide doesn't usually work on me. :)
Anna :rose: Having a bad bug day? Tech Blog | Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
Snide doesn't usually work on me.
That's why I didn't do it. :-D
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
devvvy wrote:
Is it true, best programmers are generally unemployed?
No. There are good and bad programmers who are unemployed. There are good and bad programmers who are employed.
Kevin
I agree with Kevin's comment. However, I think the question in general is vague. Good can mean anything. Programming is such a wide field that I would argue that no one person can be an expert. Anyone who is good will specialize in certain areas, for instance: prototyping, user interface, database, games, communications, web apps, security and the list goes on. Unless you have created a program in one of these areas and have reviewed other people's code or had your code reviewed, how do you know that the code is actually good? Also, you can be good at working on small projects (lone programmer) but not be able to complete a very large project (i.e. within a team of more than 50 people) and the opposite might be equally true. Good might mean getting something working really quick. For personal use, this is okay, but if it's a commercial application, it should be bug and crash free code. There's also an issue of creating lots of working code versus code that has to be re-used and maintained. Anyways, my original point is what does good exactly mean?
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You're right, my apologies, allow me to better rephrase that .. Some programmers who could perform 'Profitably' with their skills have a hard time keeping a job because they try to market their theoretic potential instead of their actual skills. From a Bosses point of view that's just wrong because the JOB of a programmer doesn't lie within the boundaries of experimentation and learning. That's just my point though, nobody has to agree with that ... :|
I absolutelly agree with that for bosses is only money and more money no matter how you get the work done if the code is a piece-of-crap-unmaintainable-non-future-proof-non-modular-non-scalable or if its the most beautiful and reusable code and scalable and maintainable its the same for them but i think it's very worth investing in experimentation and learning, better trained programmers do better software in less time but no one is wiling to invest on it, look at Microsoft or big companies investing in research that will lead eventually to better and best selling software
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The distractionless environment (e.g. unemployed) might help them concentrate and create great things, but it won't make a mediocre programmer a good one.
patbob
patbob wrote:
The distractionless environment (e.g. unemployed) might help them concentrate and create great things, but it won't make a mediocre programmer a good one.
exactly