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Anyone could write a song full of such tripe. Only idiots listen and believe without proof.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: Anyone could write a song full of such tripe. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. Whilst I don't entirely disagree with this (I don't think anyone could write it, it's particularly well written tripe)... the same could be said of government hype. Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. ;) Paul
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Jason Henderson wrote: Anyone could write a song full of such tripe. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. Whilst I don't entirely disagree with this (I don't think anyone could write it, it's particularly well written tripe)... the same could be said of government hype. Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. ;) Paul
Paul Riley wrote: Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. I agree. But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Paul Riley wrote: Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. I agree. But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? How about because what they say is true? You could choose to replace America with any of a number of world powers both modern and past and it would still be true.* Hurts doesn't it. * obviously you may need to change the specific references, but I guess you can figure that part out. And yes I am including Britain in that list; she is no exception.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
TOTD: Doubleclicking a personalised menu will remove the personalisation.
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Paul Riley wrote: Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. I agree. But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? I wouldn't; nor would I take Dubya a whole lot more seriously than a rock band ;). Just because I listen to a music, doesn't mean I absorb it without question. When it comes down to it, both opinions (SoaD and GW) are very biased and very extreme. Jason Henderson wrote: What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me. Not entirely fair. They are from Jordan and Armenia, they have seen the Middle East from a different (but equally biased) viewpoint from what we have. I'd seriously suggest visiting the web site: System of a Down[^] It's a really well-designed site and offers a very in-depth view of the world from their eyes. It does read a little like a conspiracy page at times and should be taken with the thought in mind that they make money from being controversial (again, top selling album pre-9/11 -- you wouldn't expect Eminem to speak out on a web-site about how he isn't quite the bad-boy he proclaims to be). But it's always interesting to pay attention to both extremes and the moderates. Never dismiss information, however invalid it may seem at first glance. Paul
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Paul Riley wrote: Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. I agree. But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: What makes them experts? fortunately, you don't have to be an expert to voice your opinion. (Note: any wise-ass comments about the abundance of opinions on the internet will only prove this point :) ) besides, Bush and Co. are all professional politicians, it is expected that whenever they open their mouth, pandering and spin will ooze out. believing anything they say is an exercise in spin-filtering. at least with musicians you can generally take what they say at face value; however unpleasant you find the words, you don't need to suspect they were paid for in order to support some agenda (besides the musician's own need to sell records). but most importantly, musicians don't control our tax dollars. :) -c
As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.
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Jason Henderson wrote: What makes them experts? fortunately, you don't have to be an expert to voice your opinion. (Note: any wise-ass comments about the abundance of opinions on the internet will only prove this point :) ) besides, Bush and Co. are all professional politicians, it is expected that whenever they open their mouth, pandering and spin will ooze out. believing anything they say is an exercise in spin-filtering. at least with musicians you can generally take what they say at face value; however unpleasant you find the words, you don't need to suspect they were paid for in order to support some agenda (besides the musician's own need to sell records). but most importantly, musicians don't control our tax dollars. :) -c
As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.
Chris Losinger wrote: it is expected that whenever they open their mouth, pandering and spin will ooze out Agreed, but I find them slightly more trustworthy than past politicians. Chris Losinger wrote: however unpleasant you find the words, you don't need to suspect they were paid for in order to support some agenda Just because someone is a politician does not mean they were paid for. There are probably some decent ones (i hope). Also, musicians/entertainers do have agendas based on their own beliefs so why should I trust them anymore than a politician? We should all be sceptics but not total freaks who believe everything a certain group says. We need to learn to think out our opinions rather than repeating the opinions of others.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jason Henderson wrote: But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? I wouldn't; nor would I take Dubya a whole lot more seriously than a rock band ;). Just because I listen to a music, doesn't mean I absorb it without question. When it comes down to it, both opinions (SoaD and GW) are very biased and very extreme. Jason Henderson wrote: What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me. Not entirely fair. They are from Jordan and Armenia, they have seen the Middle East from a different (but equally biased) viewpoint from what we have. I'd seriously suggest visiting the web site: System of a Down[^] It's a really well-designed site and offers a very in-depth view of the world from their eyes. It does read a little like a conspiracy page at times and should be taken with the thought in mind that they make money from being controversial (again, top selling album pre-9/11 -- you wouldn't expect Eminem to speak out on a web-site about how he isn't quite the bad-boy he proclaims to be). But it's always interesting to pay attention to both extremes and the moderates. Never dismiss information, however invalid it may seem at first glance. Paul
I agree totally. Its just that we shouldn't except these guys as credible anymore than Dubya.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Paul Riley wrote: Anyone could write one of Bush's speeches. Only idiots listen and believe without proof. I agree. But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? What makes them experts? They sound like a bunch of conspiracy theorist nutcases to me.
Jason Henderson
start page
articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Chris Losinger wrote: it is expected that whenever they open their mouth, pandering and spin will ooze out Agreed, but I find them slightly more trustworthy than past politicians. Chris Losinger wrote: however unpleasant you find the words, you don't need to suspect they were paid for in order to support some agenda Just because someone is a politician does not mean they were paid for. There are probably some decent ones (i hope). Also, musicians/entertainers do have agendas based on their own beliefs so why should I trust them anymore than a politician? We should all be sceptics but not total freaks who believe everything a certain group says. We need to learn to think out our opinions rather than repeating the opinions of others.
Jason Henderson
start page
articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: Also, musicians/entertainers do have agendas based on their own beliefs so why should I trust them anymore than a politician? because musicains don't have bombs, police, spies, laws and our tax dollars. i'm not saying you should believe them (we agree on that). i'm just saying with a musician, you can take them or leave them, but you don't have to worry about who's pulling the strings. -c
As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.
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I agree totally. Its just that we shouldn't except these guys as credible anymore than Dubya.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: I agree totally. Its just that we shouldn't except these guys as credible anymore than Dubya. Sure. The only problem is that these guys have no power with which to control the political shape of the world and that makes them a whole lot less scary than the Shrub. Remember that those who listen and agree with everything they say probably already agree with them before they ever listen to the music. And they do write some kick-ass toons :-D Paul
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Jason Henderson wrote: But why should you believe these guys anymore than Dubya? How about because what they say is true? You could choose to replace America with any of a number of world powers both modern and past and it would still be true.* Hurts doesn't it. * obviously you may need to change the specific references, but I guess you can figure that part out. And yes I am including Britain in that list; she is no exception.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
TOTD: Doubleclicking a personalised menu will remove the personalisation.
Racism: A problem everywhere. Fortunately, a majority of white people don't practice it anymore so why lump all of America into the racist stereotype. War: Every country has a right to self defense. Iraq invaded Kuwait, so we helped them. In Grenada, American medical students where being held, so we freed them. Policing the World: I'm all for stopping. Let the UN and Europe handle their own problems. "Crazed loonies all walk the streets" - another generalization which isn't true everywhere in America. "Missing children on milk cartons" - this is a good thing. we're tryin to find them. "Mother selling child for crack " - there are some screwed up people but America isn't filled with them. David Wulff wrote: Hurts doesn't it. We have problems but its nothing the rest of the world doesn't experience.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jason Henderson wrote: I agree totally. Its just that we shouldn't except these guys as credible anymore than Dubya. Sure. The only problem is that these guys have no power with which to control the political shape of the world and that makes them a whole lot less scary than the Shrub. Remember that those who listen and agree with everything they say probably already agree with them before they ever listen to the music. And they do write some kick-ass toons :-D Paul
Paul Riley wrote: these guys have no power with which to control the political shape of the world They do have power over their listeners, they just don't have bombs. Ever hear that the pen is mightier than the sword?
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jason Henderson wrote: Also, musicians/entertainers do have agendas based on their own beliefs so why should I trust them anymore than a politician? because musicains don't have bombs, police, spies, laws and our tax dollars. i'm not saying you should believe them (we agree on that). i'm just saying with a musician, you can take them or leave them, but you don't have to worry about who's pulling the strings. -c
As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.
Musicians do have some influence, so if they lie to spread their agenda they are just as bad as a politician.
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Just because they are nuts they still might be right ;)
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
You can believe a nut but I won't. :)
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Musicians do have some influence, so if they lie to spread their agenda they are just as bad as a politician.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Paul Riley wrote: these guys have no power with which to control the political shape of the world They do have power over their listeners, they just don't have bombs. Ever hear that the pen is mightier than the sword?
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: They do have power over their listeners, they just don't have bombs. But their listeners don't have bombs either. I doubt GW is a big System of a Down fan, if you know what I mean :). I think you overestimate the power music has over people. People simply listen to the kind of music that appeals to their sensibilities. Thus a statistical study will usually show a predeliction to follow the message in the music but that's not entirely accurate. Take violent video games and movies for example. These often get blamed for making people more violent. Not true. People with violent tendencies will play violent video games and watch violent movies, thus skewing any statistical analysis. The rest of us take it as entertainment, escape from reality for a while, then go home and act no differently. The same applies to music. David listens to System of a Down and takes the words seriously. This is not because he's stupid or believing blindly in the words of a rock band. This is because he's already made an informed decision as to where he stands and it happens to tally with what SoaD are saying. I listen to SoaD because I love the music, not because I take them particularly seriously. You don't listen to it because it actually offends your sensibilities. Do you really think that if you did listen to it then you'd change your mind? (if so then maybe you should :-D) You could argue that music, TV and video games have some effect over young children and that would be true to a point. But would you really rather those children only ever got to hear one point of view? Who's point of view would that be? Is your opinion any more valid than David's? Paul
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Jason Henderson wrote: They do have power over their listeners, they just don't have bombs. But their listeners don't have bombs either. I doubt GW is a big System of a Down fan, if you know what I mean :). I think you overestimate the power music has over people. People simply listen to the kind of music that appeals to their sensibilities. Thus a statistical study will usually show a predeliction to follow the message in the music but that's not entirely accurate. Take violent video games and movies for example. These often get blamed for making people more violent. Not true. People with violent tendencies will play violent video games and watch violent movies, thus skewing any statistical analysis. The rest of us take it as entertainment, escape from reality for a while, then go home and act no differently. The same applies to music. David listens to System of a Down and takes the words seriously. This is not because he's stupid or believing blindly in the words of a rock band. This is because he's already made an informed decision as to where he stands and it happens to tally with what SoaD are saying. I listen to SoaD because I love the music, not because I take them particularly seriously. You don't listen to it because it actually offends your sensibilities. Do you really think that if you did listen to it then you'd change your mind? (if so then maybe you should :-D) You could argue that music, TV and video games have some effect over young children and that would be true to a point. But would you really rather those children only ever got to hear one point of view? Who's point of view would that be? Is your opinion any more valid than David's? Paul
Paul Riley wrote: I think you overestimate the power music has over people. I listen to music and am not swayed, but others are. Some people watch violent tv and go shoot up a restaurant. I'm not blaming the musician or the tv show writer. It's the irrational person that they influence that should be blamed. Paul Riley wrote: David listens to System of a Down and takes the words seriously. This is not because he's stupid or believing blindly in the words of a rock band. This is because he's already made an informed decision as to where he stands How do you know it is an informed decision? Think about. Do you think GWB is really out to rule the world? If he want the oil for his buddies, why didn't Bush Sr. take it in '90? All I'm saying is don't be so gullible. Paul Riley wrote: Is your opinion any more valid than David's? Of course. ;P
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill -
Jason Henderson wrote: Also, musicians/entertainers do have agendas based on their own beliefs so why should I trust them anymore than a politician? because musicains don't have bombs, police, spies, laws and our tax dollars. i'm not saying you should believe them (we agree on that). i'm just saying with a musician, you can take them or leave them, but you don't have to worry about who's pulling the strings. -c
As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.
Chris Losinger wrote: i'm just saying with a musician, you can take them or leave them, but you don't have to worry about who's pulling the strings. Don't be naive... Commercially viable musicians are slaves to record sales and record companies. Ones with talent use that talent to create art that is sellable. Those without talent resort to shock and controversy. You be the judge as to which we are refering to here. ;)
Mike Mullikin :beer: You can't really dust for vomit. Nigel Tufnel - Spinal Tap
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Racism: A problem everywhere. Fortunately, a majority of white people don't practice it anymore so why lump all of America into the racist stereotype. War: Every country has a right to self defense. Iraq invaded Kuwait, so we helped them. In Grenada, American medical students where being held, so we freed them. Policing the World: I'm all for stopping. Let the UN and Europe handle their own problems. "Crazed loonies all walk the streets" - another generalization which isn't true everywhere in America. "Missing children on milk cartons" - this is a good thing. we're tryin to find them. "Mother selling child for crack " - there are some screwed up people but America isn't filled with them. David Wulff wrote: Hurts doesn't it. We have problems but its nothing the rest of the world doesn't experience.
Jason Henderson
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articles
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: Racism: A problem everywhere. Fortunately, a majority of white people don't practice it anymore so why lump all of America into the racist stereotype I can't believe you just said that - racism is NOT all about White v's Black, and whatever has happened in your nation's two hundred years of history doesn't change that. Jason Henderson wrote: War: Every country has a right to self defense. Iraq invaded Kuwait, so we helped them. In Grenada, American medical students where being held, so we freed them. So? So? Jason Henderson wrote: "Crazed loonies all walk the streets" - another generalization which isn't true everywhere in America. What part of that said everyone on the streets is a crazed loony as you seem to be suggesting? Ditto for the others. You've missed the point by a very large margin. Jason Henderson wrote: We have problems but its nothing the rest of the world doesn't experience That's not what I emant, what I meant is that it hurts to be told that America isn't holier than my arse. Not to all people you must understand - I do not pretend to believe that for a moment - but to some. Personally I don't give a damn what my country (Britain) does or does not do but I damned well expect them to look further than our own shores when so much of what they do has global consequences.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
TOTD: Doubleclicking a personalised menu will remove the personalisation.
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Paul Riley wrote: I think you overestimate the power music has over people. I listen to music and am not swayed, but others are. Some people watch violent tv and go shoot up a restaurant. I'm not blaming the musician or the tv show writer. It's the irrational person that they influence that should be blamed. Paul Riley wrote: David listens to System of a Down and takes the words seriously. This is not because he's stupid or believing blindly in the words of a rock band. This is because he's already made an informed decision as to where he stands How do you know it is an informed decision? Think about. Do you think GWB is really out to rule the world? If he want the oil for his buddies, why didn't Bush Sr. take it in '90? All I'm saying is don't be so gullible. Paul Riley wrote: Is your opinion any more valid than David's? Of course. ;P
Jason Henderson
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"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston ChurchillJason Henderson wrote: Some people watch violent tv and go shoot up a restaurant. Only violent people. If a movie didn't trigger that tendency, something else would. Jason Henderson wrote: It's the irrational person that they influence that should be blamed. Agreed. Jason Henderson wrote: How do you know it is an informed decision? Because I've talked to David before and I know that even when he doesn't agree with me, he's at least thought it out. I have no problem with anyone who doesn't agree with me as long as they're ready to back their opinion. The world would be a tedious place without a range of opinions. Jason Henderson wrote: Think about. Do you think GWB is really out to rule the world? If he want the oil for his buddies, why didn't Bush Sr. take it in '90? All I'm saying is don't be so gullible. Personally... okay, you've asked for it, I've avoided offering opinions on this here, I only try to play devil's advocate. But here's what I honestly believe: I don't think GWB is after the oil (God, I hope not!). I also think that his war effort against Iraq is with all the best intentions... but we all know what best intentions pave :) However, I do understand why people believe that. Because of his oil connections, GW is clearly more aware of Iraq than of other nations with similar problems. He justifies the potential war with talk about attrocities against the populace of Iraq while ignoring much worse atrocities in Rwanda and other African nations. He talks about the evil dictator while growling quietly at SOME of the other evil dictators in the world. He talks about the fact that Iraq has invaded Iran and Kuwait, ignoring the fact that they were on our side against the former and at the very least allowed to believe that no one would get involved over the latter. He talks about humanitarian issues while ignoring China and a long list of other countries. He talks about weapons of mass destruction while he must be aware that just having such weapons is not enough, they need to have a delivery system. Why bother when you can just fly a plane into a tall building? He talks about the UN resolutions, but if the UN don't want to enforce them then that's not his problem. A lot of the UN wants to tell Israel to calm down but no one bothers proposing resolutions any more in the absolute knowledge that they will be vetoed by the US. You can't bl