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Justified action

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  • R Offline
    R Offline
    Russell Morris
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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    • R Russell Morris

      I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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      Chris Losinger
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      justified[^] but, personally i think it comes down to this: an action is justified when the people who's opinions matter to you are more likely to agree than to disgree with it. the tricky part is: who's opinions matter to you? if it's just you and your delusions, almost anything is possible. -c


      As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.

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      • R Russell Morris

        I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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        Jason Henderson
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        There will always be those that disagree with your action. In the end if you feel like it was justified then that's all you can ask for. (unless, of course, you're some kind of kook)

        Jason Henderson
        start page
        articles
        "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill

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        • R Russell Morris

          I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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          Christian Graus
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          An action is justified if it does not lower the person who pursues it to a level they do not want, and if the repercussions of the action cause no more harm to all affected by it than they deserve or than they will recieve if the opposite course of action is taken. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002

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          • R Russell Morris

            I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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            ColinDavies
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            Since it's impossible to predict the future correctly in a situation without the action occuring, you therefore cannot justify any action on that basis. Instead of prooving a hypothesis is right you should concentrate on proving that its false abilities are implausable. Regardz Colin J Davies

            Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

            You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.

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            • C Chris Losinger

              justified[^] but, personally i think it comes down to this: an action is justified when the people who's opinions matter to you are more likely to agree than to disgree with it. the tricky part is: who's opinions matter to you? if it's just you and your delusions, almost anything is possible. -c


              As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.

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              Nick Parker
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Chris Losinger wrote: the tricky part is: who's opinions matter to you? if it's just you and your delusions, almost anything is possible. Chris, It could be viewed that "you and your delusions" will always represent everything and everyone (to you), then were all screwed, right? :~ Nick Parker
              If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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              • N Nick Parker

                Chris Losinger wrote: the tricky part is: who's opinions matter to you? if it's just you and your delusions, almost anything is possible. Chris, It could be viewed that "you and your delusions" will always represent everything and everyone (to you), then were all screwed, right? :~ Nick Parker
                If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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                Chris Losinger
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Nick Parker wrote: then were all screwed, right? welcome to my world. :) everyday i'm amazed the human race has managed to get this far.


                As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.

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                • C Christian Graus

                  An action is justified if it does not lower the person who pursues it to a level they do not want, and if the repercussions of the action cause no more harm to all affected by it than they deserve or than they will recieve if the opposite course of action is taken. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002

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                  Nick Parker
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Christian Graus wrote: and if the repercussions of the action cause no more harm to all affected by it than they deserve or than they will recieve if the opposite course of action is taken. This reminds me of a example we had in a philosophy course I took a few years ago. The story is simple (and in short). You wake up one morning physically attached to a famous violinst. Your soul purpose is to be attached to this violinst for the next 9 month (twist off an abortion debate) because he needs to use your body to clean his blood otherwise he will die. The question was are you obligated to continue for the next 9 months living with this man attached to you only for the life of someone you don't even know to be saved. Nick Parker
                  If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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                  • C Chris Losinger

                    Nick Parker wrote: then were all screwed, right? welcome to my world. :) everyday i'm amazed the human race has managed to get this far.


                    As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.

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                    Nick Parker
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Chris Losinger wrote: welcome to my world. and mine... delusions are somewhat of a circular reference huh? :) Nick Parker
                    If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • N Nick Parker

                      Christian Graus wrote: and if the repercussions of the action cause no more harm to all affected by it than they deserve or than they will recieve if the opposite course of action is taken. This reminds me of a example we had in a philosophy course I took a few years ago. The story is simple (and in short). You wake up one morning physically attached to a famous violinst. Your soul purpose is to be attached to this violinst for the next 9 month (twist off an abortion debate) because he needs to use your body to clean his blood otherwise he will die. The question was are you obligated to continue for the next 9 months living with this man attached to you only for the life of someone you don't even know to be saved. Nick Parker
                      If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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                      Christian Graus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Yeah - that's not wierd.... :P Am I obliged ? Not if I didn't know what was going to happen before it did. Does that mean I wouldn't do it ? Depends on if he'd agree not play his damn violin for 9 months.... Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002

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                      • C ColinDavies

                        Since it's impossible to predict the future correctly in a situation without the action occuring, you therefore cannot justify any action on that basis. Instead of prooving a hypothesis is right you should concentrate on proving that its false abilities are implausable. Regardz Colin J Davies

                        Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

                        You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.

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                        Chris Losinger
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Colin^Davies wrote: Since it's impossible to predict the future correctly in a situation without the action occuring, you therefore cannot justify any action on that basis. tell that to GWB. :) sorry. couldn't help myself.


                        As always, it's bread and circuses. And while bread is down right now, circuses are way up.

                        random quote

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                        • R Russell Morris

                          I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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                          Megan Forbes
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Most actions can be justified if you are not putting yourself ahead while knowingly hurting someone else. My 2 cents... The following statement about your geekness is true. The previous statement about your geekness is false. GCS/IT/P d- s: a- C++++$ UL+>++++ P+ L++$ E- W+++$ N !o K+ w++$ O---- M-- PS- PE Y+ PGP--- t !5 X- tv b+++ DI++ D+ G++ e++ h--- r+++

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                          • R Russell Morris

                            I hope no one considers this soapbox material, as I intend it to be a purely philosophical question... While I was responding to a post from David Wulff in the Soapbox (in the 'Temper' thread), I started mulling over how an action can or should be justified. I've asked it numerous times of numerous people, and it always starts a war of words in which someone almost always ends up contradicting themselves during the argument. So, of course, I want to know what the intelligent and feisty minds of CP think ;) So... which is it? How is an action justified? Because of the effect people think it will have? Or because the action is justifiable unto itself? Can an action only be justified after taking it and then figuring out what happenned (ie after the fact)? Personally, I've been from the Rand end of the spectrum all the way over to the completely utilitarian, and I'm still not quite sure which is right. What do you guys think? -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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                            Roger Wright
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            A very interesting question, Russell... An action is justified if it is consistent with the set of values you have consciously chosen as a foundation for your life, and if the situation calls more strongly for action than inaction. Often the best course is to do nothing, though few people realize that. Most often, though, there is no conscious choice of values, and people are therefore bewildered by their own actions, frustrated by situations that they cannot resolve morally, and dependent upon the opinions of others for jsutification. The vast majority of people never experience the culling process of weeding out the beliefs and ethical values they have grown attached to by association with their parents and peers, which usually contain many internal conflicts. Only by consciously reviewing and either deliberately choosing or rejecting the ideas one has taken for granted can one acquire a consistent set of values by which to justify future actions. Old malted hops and yeasts never die, they just slowly stupify...

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                            • C Christian Graus

                              Yeah - that's not wierd.... :P Am I obliged ? Not if I didn't know what was going to happen before it did. Does that mean I wouldn't do it ? Depends on if he'd agree not play his damn violin for 9 months.... Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002

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                              Nick Parker
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Christian Graus wrote: Yeah - that's not wierd.... Tell me about it, it was also a required course as well. :confused: Christian Graus wrote: Not if I didn't know what was going to happen before it did. Kinda hard for a baby to know what to expect before you do huh, guess that's why we are guys; the baby doesn't grow in our stomach. ;) But your comment does raise questions about abortion, BTW how is this considered down-under? It is legal here (i.e. - abortion). Nick Parker
                              If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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                              • N Nick Parker

                                Christian Graus wrote: Yeah - that's not wierd.... Tell me about it, it was also a required course as well. :confused: Christian Graus wrote: Not if I didn't know what was going to happen before it did. Kinda hard for a baby to know what to expect before you do huh, guess that's why we are guys; the baby doesn't grow in our stomach. ;) But your comment does raise questions about abortion, BTW how is this considered down-under? It is legal here (i.e. - abortion). Nick Parker
                                If the automobile had followed the same development as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year killing everyone inside. -Robert Cringely


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                                Christian Graus
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                Abortion is legal, but sometimes hard to get hold of, at least that's what the lezbo feminists tell me. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002

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