Unintended consequences
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Christian Graus wrote:
You've been in the presence of greatness.
Constantly, but let's talk about the Mac.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
ROTFL. We could do this all day. Truth is, the Mac has it's flaws, too, but I like to play the zealot from time to time.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
What good does it do you if they move to india, and so less jobs exist in the US, and less taxes get paid ?
I get to continue to live in a growing economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, if all jobs in the US that can move, do move to india, and your unemployment hits, say, 40%, that's a good thing ?
It makes no difference if the jobs are here if they exist only to promote some form of collectivism. My economic security, and yourse for that matter, depends upon a growing economy. It depends upon private investments and private spending of wealth that was earned in the actual production of goods. Indeed it would be better for my culture if that happened here. But my culture is a moot point - it has already been destroyed. Economically, it makes no difference to me where it happens at.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I get to continue to live in a growing economy.
How do you figure ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
It makes no difference if the jobs are here if they exist only to promote some form of collectivism.
Protectionism and collectivism are not the same thing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
I get to continue to live in a growing economy.
How do you figure ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
It makes no difference if the jobs are here if they exist only to promote some form of collectivism.
Protectionism and collectivism are not the same thing.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
How do you figure ?
Because economic growth is only possible given increasing productivity. Productivity is defined by producing more with less. A business becomes more productive by being more efficient. Reducing overhead, such as taxes, is one the easiest ways to achieve that. The more efficient business becomes, the wealthier we all become simply because the things we buy are cheaper and the more wealth we have to invest in even more businesses. That is the only formula for actually growing an economy. No government ever has, or ever will, derive an economic formula which can do that. It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
Christian Graus wrote:
Protectionism and collectivism are not the same thing.
There is no reason they can't be.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
How do you figure ?
Because economic growth is only possible given increasing productivity. Productivity is defined by producing more with less. A business becomes more productive by being more efficient. Reducing overhead, such as taxes, is one the easiest ways to achieve that. The more efficient business becomes, the wealthier we all become simply because the things we buy are cheaper and the more wealth we have to invest in even more businesses. That is the only formula for actually growing an economy. No government ever has, or ever will, derive an economic formula which can do that. It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
Christian Graus wrote:
Protectionism and collectivism are not the same thing.
There is no reason they can't be.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
There is no reason they can't be
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
How do you figure ?
Because economic growth is only possible given increasing productivity. Productivity is defined by producing more with less. A business becomes more productive by being more efficient. Reducing overhead, such as taxes, is one the easiest ways to achieve that. The more efficient business becomes, the wealthier we all become simply because the things we buy are cheaper and the more wealth we have to invest in even more businesses. That is the only formula for actually growing an economy. No government ever has, or ever will, derive an economic formula which can do that. It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
Christian Graus wrote:
Protectionism and collectivism are not the same thing.
There is no reason they can't be.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
In the hands of Microsoft and Bill Gates? The pool of money he swims in is a pool of money that does not circulate through the economy. Seems like you didn't read the article either because...
The article says:
Typically, he said, a company like Microsoft develops a product like Windows in the United States and deducts those costs against U.S. income. It then transfers the technology to a subsidiary in Ireland, where corporate tax rates are lower, without charging licensing fees. The company then assigns its foreign sales to the Irish subsidiary so it doesn’t have to claim the income in the United States.
So they're deducting costs in the US and claiming the income in Ireland. That's taking money out of the US economy. Obama wants to stop it:
The article says:
In addition to limiting current deductions for companies that defer U.S. tax on their foreign profits, Obama proposed altering a set of rules known as “check the box” that allow companies to shelter foreign profits in offshore subsidiaries that can be disregarded for U.S. tax purposes.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
as has every major US corporation. this is simply a reason to accelerate, and I don't disagree as I don't subscribe to the notion that paying excessive taxes is patriotic unless we're in an active war that is life or death for the nation, certainly not to finance socialism
I think taxes suck. I think doing one's best to avoid (not evade) taxes makes great good sense. But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes. The cost savings when they can hire someone for $50 @ week instead of $1500 is so great that if China's tax rate was twice the U.S.'s, it would still be attractive to move the jobs. So, I see no reason in the world why the United States shouldn't levy a tax on all goods coming into this country made by scabs and slaves, bringing the price right back up to the level it would cost if the manufacturers had been employing the people they are forcing the rest of us to support with our taxes by putting them out of work. Raise our duties enough and either there will be more work, or lower taxes for you and me as the overseas manufactures begin to pay the bills we've been stuck with.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
I see no reason in the world why the United States shouldn't levy a tax on all goods coming into this country made by scabs and slaves, bringing the price right back up to the level it would cost if the manufacturers had been employing the people they are forcing the rest of us to support with our taxes by putting them out of work
Protectionism. I thought your previous position was that protectionism was as harmful then (as in the Great Depression) as it would be now.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
In the hands of Microsoft and Bill Gates? The pool of money he swims in is a pool of money that does not circulate through the economy. Seems like you didn't read the article either because...
The article says:
Typically, he said, a company like Microsoft develops a product like Windows in the United States and deducts those costs against U.S. income. It then transfers the technology to a subsidiary in Ireland, where corporate tax rates are lower, without charging licensing fees. The company then assigns its foreign sales to the Irish subsidiary so it doesn’t have to claim the income in the United States.
So they're deducting costs in the US and claiming the income in Ireland. That's taking money out of the US economy. Obama wants to stop it:
The article says:
In addition to limiting current deductions for companies that defer U.S. tax on their foreign profits, Obama proposed altering a set of rules known as “check the box” that allow companies to shelter foreign profits in offshore subsidiaries that can be disregarded for U.S. tax purposes.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
The pool of money he swims in is a pool of money that does not circulate through the economy.
Yes it does. The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes. Hell, if you're a programmer you're probably spending some of his money right now. It is very odd that a programmer would not understand the economic realities that create most programming jobs.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
So they're deducting costs in the US and claiming the income in Ireland. That's taking money out of the US economy.
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
It all depends upon as much wealth being kept in the hands of private individuals as possible.
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
There is no reason they can't be
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Well, in this case they are.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote:
The pool of money he swims in is a pool of money that does not circulate through the economy.
Yes it does. The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes. Hell, if you're a programmer you're probably spending some of his money right now. It is very odd that a programmer would not understand the economic realities that create most programming jobs.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
So they're deducting costs in the US and claiming the income in Ireland. That's taking money out of the US economy.
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating. 2) Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever. Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
The money is in freakin' Ireland. Obama's not getting it and you're not getting it either. In this case the money did effectively did vanish into a pit because it was not spent in the US.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
as has every major US corporation. this is simply a reason to accelerate, and I don't disagree as I don't subscribe to the notion that paying excessive taxes is patriotic unless we're in an active war that is life or death for the nation, certainly not to finance socialism
I think taxes suck. I think doing one's best to avoid (not evade) taxes makes great good sense. But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes. The cost savings when they can hire someone for $50 @ week instead of $1500 is so great that if China's tax rate was twice the U.S.'s, it would still be attractive to move the jobs. So, I see no reason in the world why the United States shouldn't levy a tax on all goods coming into this country made by scabs and slaves, bringing the price right back up to the level it would cost if the manufacturers had been employing the people they are forcing the rest of us to support with our taxes by putting them out of work. Raise our duties enough and either there will be more work, or lower taxes for you and me as the overseas manufactures begin to pay the bills we've been stuck with.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes.
And don't forget that they don't have to subsidize health care or give a damn about zoning or environmental laws.
Oakman wrote:
Raise our duties enough and either there will be more work,
I've been generally against such things but I think my mind is starting to change. Of course I'd like to see all of the western countries enact the same duties. But, I think to really gain traction with the electorate we would need to see a media campaign showing the conditions in which these people are working.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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The government needs to move to Mac if Microsoft abandon the US like that. I would say the same if it was Apple moving their jobs offshore. And, Stan, this is an example of how unfettered capitalism doesn't help the country, because companies only help themselves.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
The government needs to move to Mac if Microsoft abandon the US like that. I would say the same if it was Apple moving their jobs offshore
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating. 2) Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever. Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
The money is in freakin' Ireland. Obama's not getting it and you're not getting it either. In this case the money did effectively did vanish into a pit because it was not spent in the US.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating.
unless it is in his mattress, it is circulating.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote:
The pool of money he swims in is a pool of money that does not circulate through the economy.
Yes it does. The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes. Hell, if you're a programmer you're probably spending some of his money right now. It is very odd that a programmer would not understand the economic realities that create most programming jobs.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
So they're deducting costs in the US and claiming the income in Ireland. That's taking money out of the US economy.
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
the Federal government does NOT give us a police force, local municipalities do. Roads are funded out of a tax on fuel.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The government needs to move to Mac if Microsoft abandon the US like that. I would say the same if it was Apple moving their jobs offshore
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo?
I think any purchase the government makes, should consider how their choice of vendor affects their country long term, as well as the short term benefits of a lower price. I remember being a sales rep and having mostly government clients. They would not consider any sort of exclusive deal with one supplier, because as the biggest player in this market, they tried to buy from anyone who had a fair price and good service.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Did you read the article?
The article says:
U.S. tax rules let companies defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits as long as that money remains invested overseas. Obama says he wants to end such incentives to keep foreign profits tax-deferred so that companies would invest them in the U.S.
(my emphasis)
The article says:
[Microsoft] then assigns its foreign sales to the Irish subsidiary so it doesn’t have to claim the income in the United States.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Did you read the article?
yes. I still agree with Microsoft's posture and would do the same if I could.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo?
I think any purchase the government makes, should consider how their choice of vendor affects their country long term, as well as the short term benefits of a lower price. I remember being a sales rep and having mostly government clients. They would not consider any sort of exclusive deal with one supplier, because as the biggest player in this market, they tried to buy from anyone who had a fair price and good service.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
I think any purchase the government makes, should consider how their choice of vendor affects their country long term, as well as the short term benefits of a lower price.
My opinion is based on what might be buried in the firmware, if it were pure pricing then I wouldn't hesitate.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Fisticuffs wrote:
One for you, Mike[^]
Hey, thanks - I really appreciate it. Seriously.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
the Federal government does NOT give us a police force, local municipalities do. Roads are funded out of a tax on fuel.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The government needs to move to Mac if Microsoft abandon the US like that. I would say the same if it was Apple moving their jobs offshore
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
The stupidity of it kills me. It seems as if our government is trying to undermine itself in every possible way... purchase IT infrastructure for a know competitor, outsource ammunition manufacturing to foreign companies, rely on private companies to maintain publicly funded works, and outsourcing military operations. It's like we are in a bad work of fiction.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
