Unintended consequences
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
The stupidity of it kills me. It seems as if our government is trying to undermine itself in every possible way... purchase IT infrastructure for a know competitor, outsource ammunition manufacturing to foreign companies, rely on private companies to maintain publicly funded works, and outsourcing military operations. It's like we are in a bad work of fiction.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
But this is all due to the pursuit of pure profit that Stan keeps espousing. They do it because it's cheaper.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Chris Austin wrote:
I think to really gain traction with the electorate we would need to see a media campaign showing the conditions in which these people are working.
There are plenty reports and investigative stories in the public domain. Examples from Britain include ... http://corporatepresenter.blogspot.com/2007/09/marks-spencer-gap-and-mothercare-in.html[^] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-474892/Topshop-accused-using-slave-labour-produce-Kate-Moss-range.html[^] http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consumer/caring/article.html?in_article_id=443794&in_page_id=511[^] http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/article123365.ece[^] And from the BBC archives ... http://search.bbc.co.uk/search?uri=%2F&scope=all&go=toolbar&q=Slave+Labour+and+British+Retailers[^] http://search.bbc.co.uk/search?scope=all&tab=all&q=Slave+Labour+and+American+Businesses[^] Perhaps American media archives have stories for your viewing
I've seen most of these. What I am getting at is a broad media barrage in the daily local news. I'd really like to see us live by the values we claim to embrace.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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But this is all due to the pursuit of pure profit that Stan keeps espousing. They do it because it's cheaper.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
They do it because it's cheaper.
No doubt. But cheaper has never been synonymous with better.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
so, do you also think (I happen to by the way) that the US government should stop buying ThinkPads from IBM Lenovo? In case you dont' remember, IBM sold their PC business (ThinkPad, etc.) to this Chinese company a few years back.
The stupidity of it kills me. It seems as if our government is trying to undermine itself in every possible way... purchase IT infrastructure for a know competitor, outsource ammunition manufacturing to foreign companies, rely on private companies to maintain publicly funded works, and outsourcing military operations. It's like we are in a bad work of fiction.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
The stupidity of it kills me. It seems as if our government is trying to undermine itself in every possible way
I agree.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
I thought your previous position was that protectionism was as harmful then (as in the Great Depression) as it would be now.
You're thinking of someone else (Zep, maybe? or Carson?) According to the history I know, for most of America's existence it was a net importer and tariffs were -- until Wilson showed up and decided we needed to get involved in European affairs -- all we needed to support our federal government. Nor have I seen any real evidence that the tariffs of 1930 made that big a difference to the depression - which was going to be bad, long, and painful no matter what we did. After WWII we were briefly a net exporter and therefore eager to set up free trade agreements wherever we could. Once the rest of the world got back on its feet, we once again became net importers and would have done better in any tariff war. By the time we realised just how bad our balance of payments were and how much worse they were going to be, we were also so totally entrapped in global politics that we no longer acted in our best interest. Funny how the idea of protecting the earning of the American worker is bad, but the idea of protecting the earnings of the American corporation is good. Last time I looked, both needed the other. For that matter the Constitution specifically mentions tariffs but never mentions a guarantee of the profits of businesses.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Funny how the idea of protecting the earning of the American worker is bad, but the idea of protecting the earnings of the American corporation is good. Last time I looked, both needed the other
Yes, both need the other. BUT, with multi-nationals operating as they do in a global marketplace with a global presence (branches, factories and outlets throughout the developed and developing world) it is reasonable to replace the "American Worker" with local worker wherever local happens to be and corporate earnings are still earned.
Oakman wrote:
but never mentions a guarantee of the profits of businesses
Would that meet Stan's definition of a Jeffersonian economy?
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
My opinion is based on what might be buried in the firmware
well, that's a reasonable call as well.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
if it were pure pricing then I wouldn't hesitate.
Then you're also happy to sell your country down the river for short term profit ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
Then you're also happy to sell your country down the river for short term profit ?
Well, no. But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Oakman wrote:
But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes.
And don't forget that they don't have to subsidize health care or give a damn about zoning or environmental laws.
Oakman wrote:
Raise our duties enough and either there will be more work,
I've been generally against such things but I think my mind is starting to change. Of course I'd like to see all of the western countries enact the same duties. But, I think to really gain traction with the electorate we would need to see a media campaign showing the conditions in which these people are working.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
And don't forget that they don't have to subsidize health care or give a damn about zoning or environmental laws
Maybe Obama could be sold on the idea, if it was written up as a tax on polluters and scoflaws.
Chris Austin wrote:
Of course I'd like to see all of the western countries enact the same duties.
The tariffs I'm envisioning would not apply to imports from countries like Canada or Australia or Western Europe. They pay their people fairly, and have just as many social costs like anti-pollution as we do. Then, if we also shifted the costs of providing free health care to indigents from the backs of business to the Feds, our businesses could compete fairly. We would need to insure that GM and Microsoft paid the tariff on the percentage of their products made in slave-countries while those created locally or in other civilized countries would not be taxed. Between the extra income from the tariffs and from having more Americans at work, we might find our taxes dropping while we took over healthcare. We'd pay a higher price for goods of course, but we'd have more money in our pockets to pay it with. But would GM and Microsoft continue to sell their products if we taxed them? You bet your bipee. No American sales = bankruptcy for any multinational.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
Then you're also happy to sell your country down the river for short term profit ?
Well, no. But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to?
No, I am saying that you factor in things like the affect to your society, the long term cost of job losses locally, etc, before you pay less in the short term to build opportunities elsewhere at a cost to your community.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
how do they raise funds then ?
They? local governments raise funds via: sales tax, property tax, state income tax, local income tax, cigarette tax and varying types of fees. the Federal government through: import taxes, income tax, fuel tax, cigarette tax, liquor tax, varying fees. append to both the above, "plus anything else they can think of to tax including, death, capital gains, etc."
Christian Graus wrote:
Where do your taxes go then ?
social engineering, defense, social engineering.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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I've seen most of these. What I am getting at is a broad media barrage in the daily local news. I'd really like to see us live by the values we claim to embrace.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
I'd really like to see us live by the values we claim to embrace.
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions. That is the problem. Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course he does, but Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
Then you're also happy to sell your country down the river for short term profit ?
Well, no. But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Well, in this case they are.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Well, if that's all it takes, why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Well, in this case they are.
By default. Because you have a twisted world view.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
how do they raise funds then ?
They? local governments raise funds via: sales tax, property tax, state income tax, local income tax, cigarette tax and varying types of fees. the Federal government through: import taxes, income tax, fuel tax, cigarette tax, liquor tax, varying fees. append to both the above, "plus anything else they can think of to tax including, death, capital gains, etc."
Christian Graus wrote:
Where do your taxes go then ?
social engineering, defense, social engineering.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Chris Austin wrote:
I'd really like to see us live by the values we claim to embrace.
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions. That is the problem. Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions.
Those $50.00 shoes aren't being made in the US except for New Balance. They are made in the same sweatshops as the $5.00 walmart shoes. Nikes are made in China for <$2.00. The same with the fancy North Face and expensive Deuter gear.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
I understand this but to just toss aside the ramifications of supporting unethical practices is being nihilistic. [Edit] I should also add that "shoes" and school aged children is a very personal thing to me. I have a very vivid memory of my father crying because he couldn't afford to buy me some new shoes for (gridiron) football when I was in 8th grade. I took it to heart and, even though I don't think my dad was a good man, I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:28 PM
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Oakman wrote:
Funny how the idea of protecting the earning of the American worker is bad, but the idea of protecting the earnings of the American corporation is good. Last time I looked, both needed the other
Yes, both need the other. BUT, with multi-nationals operating as they do in a global marketplace with a global presence (branches, factories and outlets throughout the developed and developing world) it is reasonable to replace the "American Worker" with local worker wherever local happens to be and corporate earnings are still earned.
Oakman wrote:
but never mentions a guarantee of the profits of businesses
Would that meet Stan's definition of a Jeffersonian economy?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Would that meet Stan's definition of a Jeffersonian economy
I think the first guy to emigrate from Stan's Jeffersonian paradise would be Thomas Jefferson.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions.
Those $50.00 shoes aren't being made in the US except for New Balance. They are made in the same sweatshops as the $5.00 walmart shoes. Nikes are made in China for <$2.00. The same with the fancy North Face and expensive Deuter gear.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
I understand this but to just toss aside the ramifications of supporting unethical practices is being nihilistic. [Edit] I should also add that "shoes" and school aged children is a very personal thing to me. I have a very vivid memory of my father crying because he couldn't afford to buy me some new shoes for (gridiron) football when I was in 8th grade. I took it to heart and, even though I don't think my dad was a good man, I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:28 PM
Chris Austin wrote:
I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating. 2) Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever. Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
The money is in freakin' Ireland. Obama's not getting it and you're not getting it either. In this case the money did effectively did vanish into a pit because it was not spent in the US.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it.
He he isn't. He has every penny of that money invested somewhere. Again, if you are programming for a private company, you could very well be spending his money right now. Without private venture captial investments, there simply would not be a software industry worth mentioning.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever.
Thats pretty much exactly what happens to it.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Circulation isn't what is important. Economic growth is what sustains an economy. And economic growth only occurs when people are paid for things they actually produce that other people need or want. When money circulates without helping to grow the economy, it is simply circleing down a drain.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, .
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Christian Graus wrote:
goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.