Unintended consequences
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course he does, but Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
Then you're also happy to sell your country down the river for short term profit ?
Well, no. But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Well, in this case they are.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Well, if that's all it takes, why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Well, in this case they are.
By default. Because you have a twisted world view.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
how do they raise funds then ?
They? local governments raise funds via: sales tax, property tax, state income tax, local income tax, cigarette tax and varying types of fees. the Federal government through: import taxes, income tax, fuel tax, cigarette tax, liquor tax, varying fees. append to both the above, "plus anything else they can think of to tax including, death, capital gains, etc."
Christian Graus wrote:
Where do your taxes go then ?
social engineering, defense, social engineering.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Chris Austin wrote:
I'd really like to see us live by the values we claim to embrace.
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions. That is the problem. Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions.
Those $50.00 shoes aren't being made in the US except for New Balance. They are made in the same sweatshops as the $5.00 walmart shoes. Nikes are made in China for <$2.00. The same with the fancy North Face and expensive Deuter gear.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
I understand this but to just toss aside the ramifications of supporting unethical practices is being nihilistic. [Edit] I should also add that "shoes" and school aged children is a very personal thing to me. I have a very vivid memory of my father crying because he couldn't afford to buy me some new shoes for (gridiron) football when I was in 8th grade. I took it to heart and, even though I don't think my dad was a good man, I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:28 PM
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Oakman wrote:
Funny how the idea of protecting the earning of the American worker is bad, but the idea of protecting the earnings of the American corporation is good. Last time I looked, both needed the other
Yes, both need the other. BUT, with multi-nationals operating as they do in a global marketplace with a global presence (branches, factories and outlets throughout the developed and developing world) it is reasonable to replace the "American Worker" with local worker wherever local happens to be and corporate earnings are still earned.
Oakman wrote:
but never mentions a guarantee of the profits of businesses
Would that meet Stan's definition of a Jeffersonian economy?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Would that meet Stan's definition of a Jeffersonian economy
I think the first guy to emigrate from Stan's Jeffersonian paradise would be Thomas Jefferson.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions.
Those $50.00 shoes aren't being made in the US except for New Balance. They are made in the same sweatshops as the $5.00 walmart shoes. Nikes are made in China for <$2.00. The same with the fancy North Face and expensive Deuter gear.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
I understand this but to just toss aside the ramifications of supporting unethical practices is being nihilistic. [Edit] I should also add that "shoes" and school aged children is a very personal thing to me. I have a very vivid memory of my father crying because he couldn't afford to buy me some new shoes for (gridiron) football when I was in 8th grade. I took it to heart and, even though I don't think my dad was a good man, I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:28 PM
Chris Austin wrote:
I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating. 2) Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever. Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
The money is in freakin' Ireland. Obama's not getting it and you're not getting it either. In this case the money did effectively did vanish into a pit because it was not spent in the US.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it.
He he isn't. He has every penny of that money invested somewhere. Again, if you are programming for a private company, you could very well be spending his money right now. Without private venture captial investments, there simply would not be a software industry worth mentioning.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever.
Thats pretty much exactly what happens to it.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Circulation isn't what is important. Economic growth is what sustains an economy. And economic growth only occurs when people are paid for things they actually produce that other people need or want. When money circulates without helping to grow the economy, it is simply circleing down a drain.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, .
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Christian Graus wrote:
goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course he does, but Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
That would certainly help the economy.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Well, if that's all it takes, why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Well, in this case they are.
By default. Because you have a twisted world view.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a twisted world view.
The only demonstrably successful economic model on the planet is that which the US has had for most of its history. Every other model has failed. The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful. When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a twisted world view.
The only demonstrably successful economic model on the planet is that which the US has had for most of its history. Every other model has failed. The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful. When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
So, you're saying that another country making money DOESN'T guarantee good things for your country ? Then you're contradicting yourself.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful
What's twisted is your ability to see socialism literally everywhere.
Stan Shannon wrote:
When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Well, unless the government organises collective farms, people will always be able to eat, at least, people with land will.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Christian Graus wrote:
He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, .
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Christian Graus wrote:
goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Yeah, I figured that was where you were going. Except, Bill gives his to charity now. So the money comes from India and goes to Africa.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
How ? You agreed elsewhere that growing someone elses economy doesn't guarentee helping yours. Make your mind up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
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Chris Austin wrote:
I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I should add, our team really sucked :laugh:
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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I should add, our team really sucked :laugh:
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
I should add, our team really sucked
Nonetheless it appears you learned things that year that have stood you in good stead. (Of course CSS would say you were just "lucky" to play on a mediocre team and just "lucky" to have succeeded in life. That is he would say it unless he's getting to know his new cellmate. :cool:)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
You have state AND federal income tax ? Well, that's a little retarded.
and if you live in Indiana you also have local (county) income tax. if you live in say, New York you also have a city income tax. so you can see why I get a bit excited on the subject.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Yeah, I figured that was where you were going. Except, Bill gives his to charity now. So the money comes from India and goes to Africa.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
How ? You agreed elsewhere that growing someone elses economy doesn't guarentee helping yours. Make your mind up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
makes you an American, circa 18th century - but we agree and this is the point made by: me, Oakman, Stan, Bonesoft and a number of others here. you've captured the essense of our arguments, we only differ on some details.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
find me a company that uses slaves and I will not buy their products. but don't give me, "economic slaves" because that puts them in the same category as you and I, merely on a different level.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Daniel Ferguson wrote:
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating.
unless it is in his mattress, it is circulating.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
unless it is in his mattress, it is circulating.
The bulk of his fortune is in Microsoft stock. It isn't circulating. It's paper. It doesn't represent cash in the economy. It just keeps score.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
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