Unintended consequences
-
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
That is all well and good until, for example, your son/daughter is at school and goes through shoes like they are going out-of-fashion. Money is tight, perhaps not for you, but most definitely for many - especially the poor, so, do you spend $50 for a pair of shoes made in USA or spend $5 from Walmart (or some such discount shop) made in India under depressing workers conditions.
Those $50.00 shoes aren't being made in the US except for New Balance. They are made in the same sweatshops as the $5.00 walmart shoes. Nikes are made in China for <$2.00. The same with the fancy North Face and expensive Deuter gear.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Intentions are fine but the application of money in people's purses might dictate that other priorities overtake your concerns for the welfare of slave labour in distant lands.
I understand this but to just toss aside the ramifications of supporting unethical practices is being nihilistic. [Edit] I should also add that "shoes" and school aged children is a very personal thing to me. I have a very vivid memory of my father crying because he couldn't afford to buy me some new shoes for (gridiron) football when I was in 8th grade. I took it to heart and, even though I don't think my dad was a good man, I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:28 PM
Chris Austin wrote:
I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating. 2) Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever. Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
The money is in freakin' Ireland. Obama's not getting it and you're not getting it either. In this case the money did effectively did vanish into a pit because it was not spent in the US.
You never ever could win a war / That's what you have to learn / Here everybody is a loser / You will get nothing in return - "Fortunes of War", Funker Vogt
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it.
He he isn't. He has every penny of that money invested somewhere. Again, if you are programming for a private company, you could very well be spending his money right now. Without private venture captial investments, there simply would not be a software industry worth mentioning.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money doesn't fall into a pit and vanish forever.
Thats pretty much exactly what happens to it.
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
Tax money goes to pay civil servants, pay for infrastructure like roads and to pay for the military. Tax money gets spent. "Spending" is how money circulates.
Circulation isn't what is important. Economic growth is what sustains an economy. And economic growth only occurs when people are paid for things they actually produce that other people need or want. When money circulates without helping to grow the economy, it is simply circleing down a drain.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only part that does not circulate through the economy and grow wealth is that part he is forced to give to the government in taxes.
Rubbish. He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good. I don't want Obama to have it. I want it.
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, .
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Christian Graus wrote:
goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course he does, but Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Stan wants to be their paymaster so he can put people in jail for buying insurance.
That would certainly help the economy.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Well, if that's all it takes, why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Well, in this case they are.
By default. Because you have a twisted world view.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a twisted world view.
The only demonstrably successful economic model on the planet is that which the US has had for most of its history. Every other model has failed. The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful. When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
why didn't China and India benefit from the US's glory days as a powerhouse economy ?
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
Christian Graus wrote:
Because you have a twisted world view.
The only demonstrably successful economic model on the planet is that which the US has had for most of its history. Every other model has failed. The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful. When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Becaue we were still capitalistic society, there was no reason for the wealth to flee our shores. Wealth was largely respected and nurtured.
So, you're saying that another country making money DOESN'T guarantee good things for your country ? Then you're contradicting yourself.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The only thing thats twisted is the notion that socialism is or can be successful
What's twisted is your ability to see socialism literally everywhere.
Stan Shannon wrote:
When the poor are eating each other because of it just rember that it was all your fault.
Well, unless the government organises collective farms, people will always be able to eat, at least, people with land will.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
He has more money than he can spend. The rest that he saves, .
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Christian Graus wrote:
goes to Africa or something as aid. Which is not bad, but it does not help you.
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
Christian Graus wrote:
You don't want a police force, roads, etc ?
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Yeah, I figured that was where you were going. Except, Bill gives his to charity now. So the money comes from India and goes to Africa.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
How ? You agreed elsewhere that growing someone elses economy doesn't guarentee helping yours. Make your mind up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
-
Chris Austin wrote:
I worked my ass off for him while wearing shoes a size too small and was named the team's MVP that year.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I should add, our team really sucked :laugh:
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
-
I should add, our team really sucked :laugh:
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
I should add, our team really sucked
Nonetheless it appears you learned things that year that have stood you in good stead. (Of course CSS would say you were just "lucky" to play on a mediocre team and just "lucky" to have succeeded in life. That is he would say it unless he's getting to know his new cellmate. :cool:)
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
Christian Graus wrote:
You have state AND federal income tax ? Well, that's a little retarded.
and if you live in Indiana you also have local (county) income tax. if you live in say, New York you also have a city income tax. so you can see why I get a bit excited on the subject.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
-
Stan Shannon wrote:
Money that is saved is invested. Those investments create jobs. How can you be working in the software industry and not understand that? Just a hunch, but I would guess that at least 75% of all software jobs a funded by private investements.
Yeah, I figured that was where you were going. Except, Bill gives his to charity now. So the money comes from India and goes to Africa.
Stan Shannon wrote:
If it helps grow their economy it certainly does.
How ? You agreed elsewhere that growing someone elses economy doesn't guarentee helping yours. Make your mind up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Of course I do, and I'm happy to pay for that or anything else that helps promote the general welfare, but that is all I want from the government.
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
makes you an American, circa 18th century - but we agree and this is the point made by: me, Oakman, Stan, Bonesoft and a number of others here. you've captured the essense of our arguments, we only differ on some details.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
-
Mike Gaskey wrote:
But are you saying that it is the correct, patriotic thing to pay more than you have to? That makes no more sense to me than volunteering to pay more taxes than I should.
Once upon a time, the Republicans believed that they had to do whatever it took, including paying higher prices for cotton to eliminate slavery. Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
find me a company that uses slaves and I will not buy their products. but don't give me, "economic slaves" because that puts them in the same category as you and I, merely on a different level.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
-
Daniel Ferguson wrote:
- He has billions of dollars. A lot of that money is not circulating because he's hoarding it. He earned it; he can do what he wants with it, but if he doesn't spend it then it's not circulating.
unless it is in his mattress, it is circulating.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
unless it is in his mattress, it is circulating.
The bulk of his fortune is in Microsoft stock. It isn't circulating. It's paper. It doesn't represent cash in the economy. It just keeps score.
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!! -
Christian Graus wrote:
The government, as I see it, has three roles 1 - act to make society predictable, that is, to enforce laws 2 - provide services such as education and emergency services 3 - be prepared to protect your country from outside threat.
makes you an American, circa 18th century - but we agree and this is the point made by: me, Oakman, Stan, Bonesoft and a number of others here. you've captured the essense of our arguments, we only differ on some details.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
makes you an American, circa 18th century
1789-1800? Or are you talking about before there was a US?
"Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." -- P.J. O'Rourke
I'm a proud denizen of the Real Soapbox[^]
ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!!! -
Mike Gaskey wrote:
as has every major US corporation. this is simply a reason to accelerate, and I don't disagree as I don't subscribe to the notion that paying excessive taxes is patriotic unless we're in an active war that is life or death for the nation, certainly not to finance socialism
I think taxes suck. I think doing one's best to avoid (not evade) taxes makes great good sense. But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes. The cost savings when they can hire someone for $50 @ week instead of $1500 is so great that if China's tax rate was twice the U.S.'s, it would still be attractive to move the jobs. So, I see no reason in the world why the United States shouldn't levy a tax on all goods coming into this country made by scabs and slaves, bringing the price right back up to the level it would cost if the manufacturers had been employing the people they are forcing the rest of us to support with our taxes by putting them out of work. Raise our duties enough and either there will be more work, or lower taxes for you and me as the overseas manufactures begin to pay the bills we've been stuck with.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes. The cost savings when they can hire someone for $50 @ week instead of $1500 is so great that if China's tax rate was twice the U.S.'s, it would still be attractive to move the jobs.
"We" don't own Microsoft. "We" don't own the jobs Microsoft provides to whomever they choose to provide them. We can't have it both ways: freedom for our own individual selves yet slavery for our fellows; reality doesn't work that way.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
And how does wealth in the hands of Bill Gates and a bunch of indians, help your society ?
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
Christian Graus wrote:
But there's no reason that they have to be.
Well, in this case they are.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
By increasing the over all productiity of the international economy.
And, more importantly, but upholding liberty even when our selfish and short-sighted "betters" want us to restrict someone else's liberty, claiming to do it to our benefit.
-
Christian Graus wrote:
You have state AND federal income tax ? Well, that's a little retarded.
and if you live in Indiana you also have local (county) income tax. if you live in say, New York you also have a city income tax. so you can see why I get a bit excited on the subject.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
and if you live in Indiana you also have local (county) income tax.
Here in Ohio, the local income tax, if it is levied, is levied at the municipality level; so, one can end up paying local income tax to *two* municipalities if one works in one and lives in another which both impose the tax. And then, besides the State sales tax, there is the (optional) county sales tax. And property tax! The property tax on my little old place (which is on the border of "the bad part" of town) works out to $100 per month.
-
Oakman wrote:
Is it okay to get goods cheaply when they are made by slaves now?
find me a company that uses slaves and I will not buy their products. but don't give me, "economic slaves" because that puts them in the same category as you and I, merely on a different level.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
find me a company that uses slaves and I will not buy their products. but don't give me, "economic slaves" because that puts them in the same category as you and I, merely on a different level.
That's why I do my best to not buy products from China ... not because of the dishonesty of the US labor unions attempting to equate honest competition with them to slavery, but because many Chinese exports are indeed manufactured by real slaves (on top of the fact that the whole country is one vast slavery), and one doesn't know which are which.
-
Oakman wrote:
But they have been moving jobs to Mexico and China, and India because they can pay slave wages over there, not to avoid taxes. The cost savings when they can hire someone for $50 @ week instead of $1500 is so great that if China's tax rate was twice the U.S.'s, it would still be attractive to move the jobs.
"We" don't own Microsoft. "We" don't own the jobs Microsoft provides to whomever they choose to provide them. We can't have it both ways: freedom for our own individual selves yet slavery for our fellows; reality doesn't work that way.
Ilíon wrote:
"We" don't own Microsoft. "We" don't own the jobs Microsoft provides to whomever they choose to provide them.
So long as the people at Microsoft who choose to live in the US pay their fair share of taxes, I would tend to agree. But, I would also say that the government, as a big potential client, as the right to push for the best deal, just as Microsoft is free to seek the best deal for itself.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
-
Ilíon wrote:
"We" don't own Microsoft. "We" don't own the jobs Microsoft provides to whomever they choose to provide them.
So long as the people at Microsoft who choose to live in the US pay their fair share of taxes, I would tend to agree. But, I would also say that the government, as a big potential client, as the right to push for the best deal, just as Microsoft is free to seek the best deal for itself.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Please read this[^] if you don't like the answer I gave to your question. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums.
Christian Graus wrote:
But, I would also say that the government, as a big potential client, as the right to push for the best deal, just as Microsoft is free to seek the best deal for itself.
It is the *obligation* of government to get the best deal -- to spend the taxpayers' money most wisely. Therefore, governmental "buy local" drives are almost always immoral.