Absolutely disgusting
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system.
Yep. Really nothing left to debate. It is all nothing now bad a very sad joke. But, heh, its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere, so I suppose someone is happy about it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
I think the republic went to hell a long time ago, but the creeping mobocracy that has been gradually replacing it seems to have rejected the rule of law, and the Supremes no longer see themselves as the last bastion of the law. I was truly heartened with Ginsberg granted a stay earlier, since she's about as liberal as there is on the Court. I guess it was not to be.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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What's your opinion regarding Chrysler's CEO stating that this is the only way to avoid liquidation? If its liquidated, won't those same bond holders receive less? Or will they have more due to them being secured debt holders?
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
What's your opinion regarding Chrysler's CEO stating that this is the only way to avoid liquidation?
Liquidation was the legal imperative. It was a failed business and bond holders by precedent (200+ years, since the beginning of our financial system) stand first in line to revover monies owed. The result will be a dramatic hit to our economy as investors will be reluctant to loan money when the government can throw out the rules necessary for commerce.
Synaptrik wrote:
If its liquidated, won't those same bond holders receive less? Or will they have more due to them being secured debt holders?
The preceding reflects my understanding, but that is largley a function of watching business news outlets.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Trouble is, there's no real alternative
yes there is, liquidation.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic
I think the republic went to hell a long time ago, but the creeping mobocracy that has been gradually replacing it seems to have rejected the rule of law, and the Supremes no longer see themselves as the last bastion of the law. I was truly heartened with Ginsberg granted a stay earlier, since she's about as liberal as there is on the Court. I guess it was not to be.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
I agree in total. We are no longer a nation of laws.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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What's your opinion regarding Chrysler's CEO stating that this is the only way to avoid liquidation? If its liquidated, won't those same bond holders receive less? Or will they have more due to them being secured debt holders?
This statement is false
Synaptrik wrote:
Or will they have more due to them being secured debt
They should receive more, much more. Obama's plan made the UAW into secured debt holders and the real ones got to go to the back of the line. They included lots of folks whose pension funds were heavily invested in the carmaker. And, to tell the truth I can't see the difference between being liquidated and being sold off to a foreign owner who doesn't want the plants, or the people - just a pared down dealer-network to sell its cars.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
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Christian Graus wrote:
Trouble is, there's no real alternative
yes there is, liquidation.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Well, that's probably true.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Well, that's probably true.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, that's probably true.
and follows 200+ years of precedent. an absolute disaster, my opinion.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Why didn't the liquadation of all the other car companies that have failed throughout American history turn the US into an historical footnote?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues. Either you believe the courts can disregard the meaning inherent in the constitution or you do not. If you do, you should be happy about this. The constitution is now entirely meaningless as a means for we the people to hold our own governmetn to account either fiscally or socially. Libertarians simply cannot have it both ways.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Why didn't the liquadation of all the other car companies that have failed throughout American history turn the US into an historical footnote?
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Because you've now reached a point where everything is in the crapper, and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Stan Shannon wrote:
its a victory for liberals and libertarians everywhere
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Sovereign ingredient for a happy marriage: Pay cash or do without. Interest charges not only eat up a household budget; awareness of debt eats up domestic felicity. --Lazarus Long Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results?
Only in Stan's twisted universe.
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Because you've now reached a point where everything is in the crapper, and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
We have never actually had unfettered capitalism. But our decline correlates more with our growing abandonment of it not our earliar embrace of it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
We have never actually had unfettered capitalism. But our decline correlates more with our growing abandonment of it not our earliar embrace of it.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
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Just saw a news flash that the US Supreme Court has okayed the Chrysler deal. That is just the headline, no insight into the details but if this means that the bond holders are forced to take $ 0.29 on the dollar as proposed by the Magic Negro then the US Constituition has been shredded and the republic is dead. Also dead is our financial system - no thinking aware investor or fund will invest in corporate bonds, one of the final nails in the coffin of our financial system. Barack Hussien Obama has successfully destroyed the Republic, God only knows what is next.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
OK, I've added the Supreme Court to the list of places to burn to the ground when the system crumbles. I'll put it... right between Jimmy Carter's peanut farm and George Soros' alter to Satan.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Mark Twain "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
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Because you've now reached a point where everything is in the crapper, and you have no wiggle room. Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Which is the end result of unfettered capitalism.
I disagree. Much of this is the direct result of excessive government meddling, mostly on behalf of the the very union that played a major role in the destruction of these care companies. Unfettered capitalism would have had both GM and Chrysler in bankruptcy proceedings in January, not on Government life support until the government could twist the rules so that the secured bondholders could be sacrificed to the union. It is especially infuriating that the union will gain nothing to speak of here (shares of stock in a Chines car manufacturer to fund their health benefits that should have been funded from Union dues and premiums which were spent electing politicians and building glof resorts instead). All the same factories will close, with the jobs moving to China. Paid for by taxpayers. What a crock.
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Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results?
Only in Stan's twisted universe.
I'm not the one twisting reality to accomodate my world view. Libertarians do support the courts rejection of its historic role in American civilization. Every single one of you guys have admitted that openly, repeatedly and proudly. Anyone who dares protest the court's social agenda gets shoved into Oakman's 'sharia law' box in the corner.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
Gee Stan, I never thought you'd say that... :P
Admit what? I have always maintained that, at the very least, capitalism was fettered by our social institutions, primarily those arising from our Christian principles.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
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Chris Austin wrote:
Why would a libertarian be happy with these results? Logic dictates that they would despise the government intervention and the fleecing of the bond holders. As someone who swings libertarian I am disgusted by both parties recent history of expanding the government, interfering in legal private contracts and, lack of integrity.
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues. Either you believe the courts can disregard the meaning inherent in the constitution or you do not. If you do, you should be happy about this. The constitution is now entirely meaningless as a means for we the people to hold our own governmetn to account either fiscally or socially. Libertarians simply cannot have it both ways.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Libertarians support virtually every judicial rejection of constitutional principles when it serves to undermine the will of the people on social issues.
Can you provide an example?
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Trouble is, there's no real alternative. I mean, I don't agree with it, but the mismanagement of corporate USA means the US either becomes a state run affair, or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. "! i don't exactly like or do programming and it only gives me a headache." - spotted in VB forums. I can do things with my brain that I can't even google. I can flex the front part of my brain instantly anytime I want. It can be exhausting and it even causes me vision problems for some reason. - CaptainSeeSharp
Christian Graus wrote:
or it simply becomes an historical footnote.
That happened to buggy whip manufacturers and one-night stables. It would have been painful, yes. But this is going to be no less painful, nor will it save very many jobs, if any. What it does do is clog up the works so someone who could create a car or car company doesn't have the niche that Chryseler or GM fillos to fit into. The two dinosaurs will die, slowly, and someday that niche may open up - but not in time to help the nation recover from this mess in the near future.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin