More Advice on hiring a good coder.
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Good Morning, Thanks to all who responded to my original thread! All the responses were helpful and I thought another thread with clerification would be better than responding to each one. I think everyone is very right about hiring someone that can learn and shift to new technologies as necessary.:) I have been reading and learning from this site for about six months , and know that most of you could more than fill the position... we would simply negotiate saleries. But how do I find people like you? I interview and talk to programmers and am not impressed. Maybe I am spoiled on this sites level of experts? For example I had an interview the other day... Sharp guy, very adept at C++, a little experience with MFC, very little experience with SQL Server, but I think fundametally he disagrees and does not practice sound OOP(It seems that should be a big deal). He needed $80,000 salery (which I do not have a big problem with) and a $20,000 signing bonus(that I don't get). I had another that needed $60,000, but couldn't pass a simple C++ test. I feel like I'm whining, so let me get on with the questions. If you were me... Business Owner, self taught programmer, working too many hours, hired many people(but no IT pros) where would you go (shortest path) to get a person to do the following? Write sound, maintainable, extendable, and stable MFC C++ code.(this seems to be the most important doesn't it?) Understand and use sound database principles with Sql Server 7.0. (should this not be a big issue, because it can be learned?) Have pride in work and accomplishments.(don't produce crap) Be easy to work with.(will listen to others) Have initiative with ways to improve things.(improving code etc) All things built here are in-house applications. At this point there are no distributed apps. Projects on the plate are: New Company Contact management software (currently using GoldMine). Some computer telephony apps. Some web stuff. Maintain about 40,000 lines of telephony code.(very stable) And lastly, what would be a reasonable amount to pay for this person? I am in Illinois USA, about 20 miles east of St. Louis Missouri. Thanks! Scott! Put the big rocks in the glass jar first!
At the contracting house that I had worked for, I had a couple of technical interviews to make sure that I knew what I have talking about. One was the project leader for the project I got hired for, and the other was a person knowledgable in COM. Between the two of them I was able to get the job. But technical interviews might not work for you. Where I am now, I was hired as a contractor and within a month they converted me to fulltime. This way they knew how I worked with very little risk. If I didn't perform then they didn't hire me or renew the contract. Steve Maier, MCSD
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At the contracting house that I had worked for, I had a couple of technical interviews to make sure that I knew what I have talking about. One was the project leader for the project I got hired for, and the other was a person knowledgable in COM. Between the two of them I was able to get the job. But technical interviews might not work for you. Where I am now, I was hired as a contractor and within a month they converted me to fulltime. This way they knew how I worked with very little risk. If I didn't perform then they didn't hire me or renew the contract. Steve Maier, MCSD
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Well here is my two cents worth: First of all I have (unfortunately) looked at hundreds of resumes over the past few years, from this I found that you can only really use a resume for a 'definitely no' or 'possibly' decision. Next I give all potential developers a small programming test, which is actually a simple program. I use this so I can see their coding style, design decisions, UI skills, and most of all their attention to detail. Even though many developers say that the test was easy to write, most did not do a good job on it (it is easy to write something that sort of works, but writing a solid well thought out app requires more skill). Once I get a test back (and only 20-30% of developers return the test) I check to see if it works, how user friendly it is, then I perform a code review. If it looks good then I proceed with an interview. The best way to conduct an interview is to have a set of standard questions you ask. Now you do not have to reiterate it word for word, but have a sheet of the questions in hand so that you know you covered all of the topics (and make notes during or after the interview). By asking each potential the same questions it is easier to compare them. The interview should be less technical and be more about work ethics, expectations, and personality. Let the interviewee do most of the talking so you do not inadvertently give them the answers you are looking for. Also let the interviewee know your expectations, be very straight forward about this. So in conclusion; you can usually find one good developer for every 200 resumes you get, so make them do most of the work (which is why I give them a test) or you will be buried under a pile or resumes. Good luck PS. I can explain more about my development tests and how they work if you want.
Hmmm... While I understand your concern for hiring competant people, I would suggest that perhaps your hiring process is driving away many good people. A competant programmer does not want to be treated like a kid fresh out of college. While it is certainly acceptable to prove qualifications (references, answering questions, etc..) putting them through such "tests" reeks of unprofessionalism and, at least to me, would indicate a despot mindset of the interviewing manager. If I were asked to jump through the hoops you are asking, I would simply end the interview. I have no problems with satisfying a potential employers concerns, but I'm not going to spend 2 days writing code for someone that may or may not ever hire me. I *MIGHT* be willing to take such a test if it were a condition of an otherwise guaranteed employment, but I would have to be paid to do so. That might seem mercenary, but employment is a two-way street. You're not just interviewing me, I'm interviewing you. I have to feel comfortable that the work environment will be something I like, and that the management will be people that consider my needs as well as their own. It is hard to find competant people. Why would you want to drive them away before you have a chance to see if they are competant or not?
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I think most people lie on their resume because they have to. E.g. I tell the truth on my resume. I took C++ classes four years ago and have been programming in C++ ever since. I took MFC classes two years ago. I am learning COM/ATL on my own (which now seems to be a waste of time thanks to .NET). I devote all my spare time to learning or enhancing my skills. However I have no work experience. No one is interested in hiring someone without work experience. I believe this is due to everyone either being more qualified or lying about their experience. I still don't lie on my on my resume. I still don't have a programming job. :(( P.S. No, I'm not asking for an outrageous salary. I'm negotiable.
Hello, the codegurus around the world. ;) I sympathize with your situation. It looks like that you took the classes while you have another full time job. In my case, I try to get the part time job as the programmer as much as possible while I go to my school. As a result, I realized how different the code of the commercial level is. When you as well as the other people including me write the code for the private life, these codes are so subjective one. The professtional programmer has to read the other people code, and sometimes this is so frustrated to me partly because the coder has more skill than I. Also, if my company assigns me the new project, I'm always thinking if I can do this? If I can't do this, my company will fire me? :(( So, I sometimes feel that the professtional programmer seems not to be the easy job. X| Have a nice day! -Masaaki Onishi-
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MFC experience is easy - they teach it in many colleges these days. SQL Server specifically might be tough (probably not, though), but SQL in general isn't too hard to find; if they don't know SQL Server, they might have used Access, Oracle or some other SQL-based db. Have you tried headhunters? While they do take a substantial chunk of cash, they can screen resumes for you and you can try their workers on a temp basis till you find one that works out. :) Or, try to find an independent contractor. There are agencies that just find jobs for contractors - they're likely to be cheaper than typical temp-to-perm headhunters. Also, you might try posting an ad at a college. Your requirements aren't really out of range for a new grad with some good co-op experience. Pay 'em low and work 'em till their hair falls out! In my experience, $80K sounds high for what you're looking for. I've got all the things you're asking and $80K would be a substantial raise for me (C/C++, SQL, 8 years of MFC, VB, VC, Perl, COM, some Unix, 10 years programming professionally, 4 years running my own software company, etc.). Unless east St. Louis is a booming high-tech center, $80K sounds about $15K too high for what you're asking. b.t.w., i'm in Research Triangle Park, NC. while it's not Silicon Valley, it is generally considered a booming high-tech center. -c ------------------------------ Smaller Animals Software, Inc. http://www.smalleranimals.com
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Hmmm... While I understand your concern for hiring competant people, I would suggest that perhaps your hiring process is driving away many good people. A competant programmer does not want to be treated like a kid fresh out of college. While it is certainly acceptable to prove qualifications (references, answering questions, etc..) putting them through such "tests" reeks of unprofessionalism and, at least to me, would indicate a despot mindset of the interviewing manager. If I were asked to jump through the hoops you are asking, I would simply end the interview. I have no problems with satisfying a potential employers concerns, but I'm not going to spend 2 days writing code for someone that may or may not ever hire me. I *MIGHT* be willing to take such a test if it were a condition of an otherwise guaranteed employment, but I would have to be paid to do so. That might seem mercenary, but employment is a two-way street. You're not just interviewing me, I'm interviewing you. I have to feel comfortable that the work environment will be something I like, and that the management will be people that consider my needs as well as their own. It is hard to find competant people. Why would you want to drive them away before you have a chance to see if they are competant or not?
I do not understand how ensuring that someone who can "talk the talk" can actually "walk the walk" will drive them away. Just because someone says that they are a great developer does not mean they are... otherwise I would have more 'great developers' than I would know what to do with :) The programming test that I give should not take a competent developer more than an hour to complete. If it does take a developer a day to write it then there is a problem :) I do not believe that this would be considered jumping through hoops. If a developer is unwilling to put any effort into getting a job (other than mass emailing a resume), then I am unwilling to reciprocate (as you mention it is a two-way street.) Also many companies give theoretical programming tests which I disagree with. I give out a test that is a small project, which mimics real life work. As for understanding a developers position, I to am a developer, and I treat my employees (and potential employees) the way I would want to be treated. How would you go about finding out if someone is actually competent... trust me the 'hire and hope' method does not work. -- It may not be perfect, but it works --
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Hi, Thanks for the response, How do I find these contracting houses? Thanks! Scott! Put the big rocks in the glass jar first!
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> MFC experience is easy - they teach it in many colleges these days. But it doesn't mean that you have MFC experience !!!:confused:
Hello, the codegurus around the world. CO-OP as MFC programmer job is competitive finding as well as a few of job offers. While I am in the shcool, I just found the VC++ job by CO-OP is just 4 or 5 jobs. So, the internship of MFC programmer is rare...:(( Have a nice day! -Masaaki Onishi-
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The guy who asks 80k plus 20k bonus is probably going to leave after one year. Give him 90k with no bonus, but fire him after one year. :)
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Hi Scott!! What is your email address? I wanna send my resume to you. Rather Anonymous till we discuss it further. ;)
On teh bottom of his message there is a link to email him. This might be only available if you logon tho, but you can send an email to Scott from there and it will not show up on the forum. Steve Maier, MCSD
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Hi Scott!! What is your email address? I wanna send my resume to you. Rather Anonymous till we discuss it further. ;)
Awesome! it's scott@proquest-tech.com Scott! Put the big rocks in the glass jar first!
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Hi Scott!! What is your email address? I wanna send my resume to you. Rather Anonymous till we discuss it further. ;)
Scott@proquest-tech.com Thanks! Scott! Put the big rocks in the glass jar first!
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Hello, the codegurus around the world. ;) I sympathize with your situation. It looks like that you took the classes while you have another full time job. In my case, I try to get the part time job as the programmer as much as possible while I go to my school. As a result, I realized how different the code of the commercial level is. When you as well as the other people including me write the code for the private life, these codes are so subjective one. The professtional programmer has to read the other people code, and sometimes this is so frustrated to me partly because the coder has more skill than I. Also, if my company assigns me the new project, I'm always thinking if I can do this? If I can't do this, my company will fire me? :(( So, I sometimes feel that the professtional programmer seems not to be the easy job. X| Have a nice day! -Masaaki Onishi-
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I do not understand how ensuring that someone who can "talk the talk" can actually "walk the walk" will drive them away. Just because someone says that they are a great developer does not mean they are... otherwise I would have more 'great developers' than I would know what to do with :) The programming test that I give should not take a competent developer more than an hour to complete. If it does take a developer a day to write it then there is a problem :) I do not believe that this would be considered jumping through hoops. If a developer is unwilling to put any effort into getting a job (other than mass emailing a resume), then I am unwilling to reciprocate (as you mention it is a two-way street.) Also many companies give theoretical programming tests which I disagree with. I give out a test that is a small project, which mimics real life work. As for understanding a developers position, I to am a developer, and I treat my employees (and potential employees) the way I would want to be treated. How would you go about finding out if someone is actually competent... trust me the 'hire and hope' method does not work. -- It may not be perfect, but it works --
You said that only 20% of the people you gave the test to, ever returned it. You may see this as "weeding out the people that can't pass it", but to me it looks more like many could be competant people just saying "screw this, I can be treated this way at my existing job". Your previous discussion didn't say much about the "test", but given that you found it quite easy to discount people that passed it as not having done it very well or paying enough attention to detail, one would think that spending a great deal of time making it perfect would be what you are looking for. As I said, I understand your desire to weed out the incompetants. The way you phrased things looked very suspicious to me, and I was simply commenting that if it were ME and I was asked what you were suggesting, I would have serious reservations about the working environment of someone that felt they needed to give such a test. I'm not saying that someone should not put effort into finding a job, but I think asking all your potential employees to jump through hoops is just a form of power trip. I think it is common courtesy to show as much respect to your candidates as they should show to you. You're no giving them the priveledge of working for you, you're cultivating a relationship. I've also hired quite a few people, and had to fire very few. I find that discussion is often enough to give a very good feel for an individuals performance. There are many ways to "feel out" a potential employee, but the way I find most effective is to put them at ease by being friendly and discussing non-work related things. Then when I move into the technical questions, they are more apt to give me the answers they believe rather than what they think I want to hear. I once finished an interview with the candidate saying "So, when are we going to start the interview?", to which I concluded, "You just completed it". So many times the interview process is about power and control. The interviewer feels they must put the interviewee "in their place". To me, it's all about asessing how someone will work in real life, and the only way to know that is to make sure they act like they would in real life.
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On teh bottom of his message there is a link to email him. This might be only available if you logon tho, but you can send an email to Scott from there and it will not show up on the forum. Steve Maier, MCSD
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Awesome! it's scott@proquest-tech.com Scott! Put the big rocks in the glass jar first!