How to get into IT?
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Not to nitpick, but becoming a developer and getting into IT are two different things, at least where I live. IT concerns itself with administering systems and making life miserable for developers by never having rights set up correctly and systems the way they want. Developers concern themselves with writing software than never works correctly with the configurations IT wants to set up. Here in the US, there are inexpensive community colleges, many of which offer courses that are every bit as good for learning actual programming as expensive universities. Perhaps something like there where you're from?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Not to nitpick, but becoming a developer and getting into IT are two different things, at least where I live. IT concerns itself with administering systems and making life miserable for developers by never having rights set up correctly and systems the way they want. Developers concern themselves with writing software than never works correctly with the configurations IT wants to set up. Here in the US, there are inexpensive community colleges, many of which offer courses that are every bit as good for learning actual programming as expensive universities. Perhaps something like there where you're from?
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Write an (good!) article on CP, that would give you some "provable relevant experience" or whatever they call it in the UK. It's required for pretty much any programming job I've ever seen. But it's not "relevant job experience" which is required for all non-junior programming jobs (at least if they're serious about it), which is of course impossible to obtain without first having a job as a junior programmer. There are no shortcuts..
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Go to university. A large number of employers wouldn't even consider an A-level leaver for the sort of job you are looking for. There's two reasons for this. First, they want the benefit of the formal education the university gave you. But more importantly, they want the benefit of the "life skills" you learnt at university. Someone who has lived away from home for a few years has had a lot of "rough edges" knocked off them, and they are *much* better prepared for the commercial world.
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Write an (good!) article on CP, that would give you some "provable relevant experience" or whatever they call it in the UK. It's required for pretty much any programming job I've ever seen. But it's not "relevant job experience" which is required for all non-junior programming jobs (at least if they're serious about it), which is of course impossible to obtain without first having a job as a junior programmer. There are no shortcuts..
You're right; there are no shortcuts. I'm not looking for any, just pointers. I understand your point about articles though - I've got a few in the works, but have a few more alterations to make before I would let anybody see it. I didn't realise that I could count them as a form of experience though - thanks for the tip I know that I would have to enter the market at a junior level, and I'd be perfectly happy to. The way I see it, it would be a very good way to pick up some knowledge outside the realm of what's possible at a home computer
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Computafreak wrote:
close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond.
Meh... that's debatable. In the US if you're coming straight out of school with no experience a community college "degree" is probably worthwhile within about 75 miles of the school. Outside that it starts to lose something. A degree from a mediocre university is probably good state wide and/or within approx 500 miles. A degree from a higher end university is likely good world-wide. After a few years in the workforce the degree and school are practically meaningless.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
I would second Electron. University is your best choice - you will get a good education, you will have your patience tested(doing difficult and at times boring subjects - which is what you will face in any job). Also the most important bit - only do a degree course with a sandwich year in industry as that way you will have a good chance of getting a job after the course and you will earn a bit during your course. You will need some good contacts and university is a good way of getting these. Don't worry about the debt. In the UK the repayment is interest free and you will have a long time to pay it back (read up on it). I do not regret going to university as most IT jobs require it even if you will learn most of what you know in IT on the job and not in university!
Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential.(Winston Churchill)
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Go to university. A large number of employers wouldn't even consider an A-level leaver for the sort of job you are looking for. There's two reasons for this. First, they want the benefit of the formal education the university gave you. But more importantly, they want the benefit of the "life skills" you learnt at university. Someone who has lived away from home for a few years has had a lot of "rough edges" knocked off them, and they are *much* better prepared for the commercial world.
And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
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Thanks; I'm vaguely aware of the difference, but wasn't sure of how to put it succinctly. There are indeed community colleges of a sort, but I'm not certain whether they would be as close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond. One of the ones which I was looking at was the Zenos IT Academy, but I'm uncertain about it given its namesake, and I've heard that the Microsoft qualifications are only just worth the paper they're printed on
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Just as an FYI, in the US, a Bachelor's Degree is given by a certified institution, whether a University, Community College or Trade School. Trade Schools typically don't offer a Bachelor's degree (or get certified and then reduce their teaching staff. For anything but computer repair, trade schools in the US are largely worthless, with some individual schools shining, but you'd only know that by doing a lot of research.) My experience for hiring in the US is that hiring managers don't care about a degree if you have any experience, even on your own. I'm one; I just care about whether you can do your job. Of the best developers I know (i.e. ones I would hire immediately, without question), only two have CS degrees. About 40% have degrees from the college of engineering, usually EE (from universities where the computer science department is entirely separate from the college of engineering) the rest have a Math degrees, an entirely unrelated degree or no degree at all.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
You're thinking about it the wrong way. Don't think of the tuition fees and living expenses as a cost - think of them as an investment. This is just the first (of many) times in your professional life when you will need to invest in yourself and your future.
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Computafreak wrote:
close to a university degree as they appear to be across the pond.
Meh... that's debatable. In the US if you're coming straight out of school with no experience a community college "degree" is probably worthwhile within about 75 miles of the school. Outside that it starts to lose something. A degree from a mediocre university is probably good state wide and/or within approx 500 miles. A degree from a higher end university is likely good world-wide. After a few years in the workforce the degree and school are practically meaningless.
Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the US if you're coming straight out of school with no experience a community college "degree" is probably worthwhile within about 75 miles of the school...
My experience is different. Bachelor degrees are primarily used by screening from HR departments who have no clue what they're doing. I've found that only a tiny number of universities have degrees with almost universal appeal. In CS, UCSD, Stanford and MIT mean something to many people--I don't give a rat's ass since I know too many people from prestigious places that couldn't actually write code worth a damn, but can give you lectures about the theory of writing code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
£5k of interest free debt per year is piffle. What's that multiplied by, 3 years? I've had larger car loans! You'll have an awful lot of time to pay it off and 10 years down the line it'll look like a smart investment.
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And what happens if I leave university and can't get a job? I'm then saddled with debt; I don't want to spend years paying off debt somehow, knowing that the degree I'm paying for hasn't helped me into a job where I can pay it off. I agree that life skills are very important (I'd say about on the same level of importance as the actual learning), but is there really no way to learn them other than paying £5,000 per year? As an afterthought, is there any way that I could get a job and be obliged to take a degree at the same time, so that I could pay for it as the repayments are demanded?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
The very best thing you can do is buy a computer, get Visual Studio Express (or buy Standard which covers 99% of what most developers need), buy some books and teach yourself how to program. Even if you go to University, this is still the very best way to learn. Be very willing to move and relocate and look for companies willing to hire you for cheap. Get experience. Got to another company and so forth. This method may take you a little longer to get to high salary and will cut you off from some jobs, especially at big companies that use a degree just to filter applicants, but you won't end up with massive debt and you will likely be a far better developer than someone college trained (especially if they do no learning on their own, like far too many people posting questions in the forums.) I work with a guy who knew an awful lot before he went to college. Now he knows a little more and has to make $300 a month payments on his student loans. I think he wasted his time. Had he spent six hours every evening teaching himself, he'd know just as much, if not more, and not have all the debt. (And I can't repeat enough how much people don't care about degrees in my region of the US.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
In the US if you're coming straight out of school with no experience a community college "degree" is probably worthwhile within about 75 miles of the school...
My experience is different. Bachelor degrees are primarily used by screening from HR departments who have no clue what they're doing. I've found that only a tiny number of universities have degrees with almost universal appeal. In CS, UCSD, Stanford and MIT mean something to many people--I don't give a rat's ass since I know too many people from prestigious places that couldn't actually write code worth a damn, but can give you lectures about the theory of writing code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I was thinking along the lines of 2 candidates applying for an entry level position at Mayberry Software, Mayberry NC. Both are fresh out of school and neither has any work experience. Both appear fairly competent and neither out-shines the other. Candidate A has an associate degree from Cletus Junior College, Bootstrap TX. Candidate B has an associates degree from Rufus P. Merriweather Community College, Berferd NC. The man doing the hiring has traveled through Berferd NC and heard from a neighbor about the fine education her daughter is getting there. Guess who is going to get the job?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I don't give a rat's ass since I know too many people from prestigious places that couldn't actually write code worth a damn, but can give you lectures about the theory of writing code.
Agreed. The degree gets you in the door - only your abilities keep you inside.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
If you can demonstrate you are good programming, then try small companies and try to be tested... Allow them to make a special contract. Don't ever try to look desperate or you won't get the job. Good luck... :rose:
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£5k of interest free debt per year is piffle. What's that multiplied by, 3 years? I've had larger car loans! You'll have an awful lot of time to pay it off and 10 years down the line it'll look like a smart investment.
10110011001111101010101000001000001101001010001010100000100000101000001000111100010110001011001011
Unfortunately it's not interest free, it's low interest though, base rate + 1% pa. So if you don't get that job it's pretty daunting to have all that grow. I graduated 2 years ago before the tuition fees hike, and only paid £1k a year tuition but even on top of this, you need about another £1k a term (3 of those a year) to simply survive, probably another £500 if you want a life while you're there too, and you won't get a student loan for any of that. I currently get docked £42 a month of my paycheck automatically to pay mine back (decided by SLC, but lump payments are available), and have about £9k left to pay. A lot of people get the impression that being a student is an easy choice and an excuse to party for 3 years, those who go into uni thinking this will suffer when they leave. Personally I had the time of my life while I was there, balanced work/play well and wouldn't trade my time there for anything! Worth every penny.
He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man
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I was thinking along the lines of 2 candidates applying for an entry level position at Mayberry Software, Mayberry NC. Both are fresh out of school and neither has any work experience. Both appear fairly competent and neither out-shines the other. Candidate A has an associate degree from Cletus Junior College, Bootstrap TX. Candidate B has an associates degree from Rufus P. Merriweather Community College, Berferd NC. The man doing the hiring has traveled through Berferd NC and heard from a neighbor about the fine education her daughter is getting there. Guess who is going to get the job?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I don't give a rat's ass since I know too many people from prestigious places that couldn't actually write code worth a damn, but can give you lectures about the theory of writing code.
Agreed. The degree gets you in the door - only your abilities keep you inside.
I agree, though I've heard that Cletus Junior College is incredible and that Boostrap TX is like no other college town. :)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
One word: Apply Apply for junior level positions, internships, even help desk jobs. I'm not sure how it works where your from, but the following is my experience. I started school and quickly realized that what they were teaching was years behind what was actually being used. You don't learn technical skills in school. You learn theory. And "life skills", maybe. In my, admittedly biased, opinion a degree is VASTLY over-rated. Networking however, is not. Go to local tech meetings, talk to people in the book stores who are looking at the same language books you are, etc... I've been to three different "schools". Community college, a state 4 year university and a tech school. I've worked in the industry, in one form or another since I was 18. Yes, I started out as a help-desk grunt for a big corporation. I'm 33 years old now and I'm a senior developer at an international company. But wether you decide to go to uni, or to go it on your own remember one thing. You can never stop learning about the craft. Ever. Your education is your own responsibility. Take it upon yourself to learn at every opportunity. You can get free copies of almost every development tool your interested in. Learn how to use them, play with them, write programs with them and finish the programs. Never stop reading, but remember to practice what your reading. The internet is a wonderful place and sites like Code Project are fantastic. But you don't learn how to do something by reading about it. You just learn that it's possible. Read it, and then do it for yourself. It's been over 10 years since anyone asked me about the lack of degree on my resume and I have job opportunities presented to me all the time.
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I know it's a strange topic title, but I couldn't think of anything else. Basically, I've got just under a year left at my sixth form. Maybe if the job market's still bad I'll go into a full-time college course at some form of "IT Academy", but that'd be a last resort. What I'm interested in is getting a job as a developer. But the problem is that I don't really want to get into debt going to university until I have an income to offset the repayments by enough for me to pay bills by Unfortunately all of the jobs I've seen are for people with degrees in Computer Science. And as I said, I don't want to get into debt until I have a job. So it would appear that I'm caught in some form of loop. I've got quite a few years of amateur experience in a few languages, but no commercial experience, so I can't market myself based off that; it isn't quantifiable. There doesn't really seem to be any way out of that I'm fairly aware that my CV wouldn't look good at that point - A levels, no degree, no commercial experience. Is there any way to in effect mitigate this, to make myself appear more employable?
Between the idea And the reality Between the motion And the act Falls the Shadow
Go to university or else your resume won't even make it to the hiring manager. Secondly, get a part time job. I worked in Sainsburys supermarket for 4 years while going to university. Stacking shelves, working the register, stocking the freezers with frozen meat products... you get the picture. It isn't pretty, but it's beer money and Sainsburys had a very nice flexible work schedule: One evening a week and one day of the weekend, plus as much overtime as I wanted during busy times such as Christmas and Easter - which really worked out great, because there's no classes during those times. Lots of my friends had part-time jobs in bars, but I had no desire to be in a bar and have to be sober. ;) Thirdly, get some proven programming experience under your belt. If you can show prospective employers working models of your projects, they will be quite impressed. Build a website in ASP.NET or something like that. Or get some good quality articles on CodeProject. It doesn't matter what it is, so long as it shows you're keen, knowledgable and *want* to work. I landed my first job out of university because the hiring manager liked the design of the icon on my demo app! He couldn't care less what the app actually did, he was just impressed with the icon! :laugh:
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