Are software engineer that cheap?
-
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
I make $23.50/h (+benifits) as a software engineer in Yakima, WA (East of the mountains)and that is fairly good money compaired to the cost of living here (note 4 person family, sole income). But to surive in Redmond and the cost of living on the coast, I would think the min would be around 60~65/h. Yes I know that Redmond is not costal front, but on the east side of the state, everything on the other side of the mountains is the coast.
-
If it came with benefits I'd say it was a reasonable rate for an entry level developer position in most of the country (a few places like Manhattan/San Francisco being exceptions); as it is I have to wonder if they're putting it out so that they can say "we can't get an american to fill the job, give us an H1B visa".
The European Way of War: Blow your own continent up. The American Way of War: Go over and help them.
-
Why do you think 65K is high? I don't know about what the correct title is, but anyone who has been coding full time 3-5 years should make about 55-65K, 5-10 years 75-85K and 10 years + should make between 90-125K
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
-
Why do you think 65K is high? I don't know about what the correct title is, but anyone who has been coding full time 3-5 years should make about 55-65K, 5-10 years 75-85K and 10 years + should make between 90-125K
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
-
Which is so far out of line with other technical fields it explains why there is so much out sourcing.
Are you joking or serious?
I didn't get any requirements for the signature
-
I would literally work for free, money does not matter but there is something wrong here. It is like the agency selling H1's rather than interested in quality people. And not appreciating the talent. Of course by that standard i can pay my employee 5$/hr and he/she should not complain. There should be some ethics. That is why i brought it here.
Whoever told you that your wages are a form of "appreciation" needs to go back to Econ 101. A wage represents what you agree to sell your services for to your employer. It is a simple economic transaction. You give them something, and they pay you. The price is set by a couple of factors. One is the average market price for a person who performs this, or a similar job. The other is perceived value. An employer might offer more than the typical market rate to somebody that they think brings more to the table than just what is being asked for. Or they might offer less to somebody who doesn't quite fit the requirements, but shows some potential to grow into the job. Employers don't employ people to "appreciate" them with a paycheck. Employers employ people because they hope it furthers whatever business they are in, and they hope that they can make a profit on the investment they make in employing someone. It comes down to this: nobody owes you a job at any rate. $22/hour is all you could command under those particular circumstances, unless you successfully negotiate a higher rate. If you don't like the rate and consider it insulting, walk away politely. If you think there might be room for negotiation, then negotiate. But don't work under the misapprehension that your wages are anything other than what the employer judges your monetary worth is to their organization, because they're not. If you are ever fortunate enough to employ someone, you will realize just how foolish you are being, and you will eat the words you have written about how by an employer's standard people should be happy to work for $5/hour. Incidentally, young man, I *have* worked for $5 an hour, and at the time I was damn glad to get it. But I fearlessly predict that you will never employ anyone. Your attitude is completely wrong, and you would fail in any business venture unless you change it. And if you would work for free, congratulations. You've found a wonderful hobby. If you're lucky enough to turn it into compensation, you're ahead of the game. You don't know what the agency is selling to anyone, unless you work for the agency or have some type of connection to somebody there who does, so stop making that accusation. It's BS. --Geoff
-
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
It better than $0/hr in this economy...take it and keep looking for something better.
-
It better than $0/hr in this economy...take it and keep looking for something better.
-
"Sire, the peasants are revolting!" "They sure are, they stink on ice."
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Er, that's utter crap. Don't take it. I live about 45 minutes away from the Redmond campus and work about 20 minutes closer at a completely different engineering-centric company. $22/hr is laughable. Look at salary.com and fill in your appropriate data for the area -- according to those statistics, I'm currently underpaid by almost $10K salary (and HAVE benefits mind you - not the greatest, but they're sufficient since I'm no hypochondriac), and I'm only 1 year out of college with a Bachelor's in Computing and Software Systems from University of Washington (effectively a Software Engineering degree with a different name). Even in my underpaid status, not including that I have a full two years less experience than you and the company I work for is only about 50 people, I *still* make more than what that recruiter was offering you, plus benefits. Let's not even get into the tax hassles involved in being a private contractor -- you're responsible for SO much more (no employer contributions, and they generally contribute 50% IIRC) that the $22/hr is really probably more like $15-$17/hr. That's intern pay, so unless you're looking for an internship or haven't learned anything since you were an intern, tell them to shove it. However, I'm looking at your post again, and it's been my observation that positions in test are really mundane jobs and require no real innovation or creativity (I could be entirely wrong; I've never worked in a formal testing department and I'm basing my observation purely on job descriptions). They just need a monkey who can type and debug code (no offense to any test engineers with actual engineering skills). My guess is that if it was in a different department, the money would substantially increase. Yikes. I didn't realize I was so passionate about this...
-
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
These are tough times, you may need take what you can get. If its for MS and you work reasonably hard and effectively then the contract will probably be extended. Getting a few months experience at MS at the start of a career is better than sitting on your butt waiting for something more lucrative, and it won't harm your future employment prospects either. The ecommuny is apparently undergoing a sprouts lead recovery, so in a few months you might be able to get a job at a state owned bank and take home a fortune in stock options and bonuses to make up for the paltry amount you'll make at MS :laugh:
Multi famam, conscientiam pauci verentur.(Pliny)
-
Todd Smith wrote:
Only a real engineer could get the mars rover to actually hit its target.
Only a good engineer could get the mars rover to actually soft-land on its target.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer[^] It says Texas regulates the use of the term "Software Engineer". And even more, Texas bans anyone from writing real-time code without an engineering license. Well quite nice since they have all this staff working on space related products.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
I even hear that Texas requires a licence to be an Architect, including software.
-
The conclusion that i arrived is that it is the agency who is making big here. I have never received such a low offer from any other agency working for MS but well there are other indian agencies who offer in 20's as well. Should this practice be allowed, No. Abosolutely not but it is very hard to stop it at this stage. Remember this is not one of those american companies who works by american standard. This is run by Indian people and that is why this male practice. A way to stop is basically Microsoft itself impose restrictions on the contractors that i am paying you this and the contracter should be paid atleast this much. That will be a boon for people who seek employment through these agencies. And it will bring some fairness to the game. Coz remember there is not stoppage for these agencies and they can go as low as 15$ or even 10$ an hour. It is only a matter of time that it will ge their. When people start a bad practice they take it to the limits. Well but if it is Microsoft itself who pays that low (which i am not sure of), then the agencies are not fault. I am just raising voice against this male practices, not for my own.
The free enterprise system would suggest that: 1. Microsoft can go to several contracting agencies. They will go to the one that gives them the best people at the best price. 2. You can go to any agency you like. You will go to the one that gives you the best job at the best rate. 3. The market will find a balance between those two given economic conditions, and the most efficient agencies who can pass on the most to the candidates will get the best people and charge them out at the best rate, It's only economic theory, but in the big bad world it works that way more often than not. If the agency is really taking highly talented Masters degree holders and placing them in $30k jobs, then they will go broke unless there is a deeper reason behind it .. as I rather suspect there is. You say it's an Indian agency. Is it operating out of India? If so, they probably have to deal with all the paperwork to get the people there. *If* this is the case then I imagine that the rate is rather better than the same person would get in India, or nobody would bother. It also may be that your qualifications are not quite what you believe them to be. I've that more times than I can count. The position sounds like an entry level position .. that '1' at the end would suggest that. If it's an intern position, it will pay an intern salary. If you really are overqualified, then don't apply. Go out and find what you really want, unless it's not there. In that case you have to suck it up until the economy improves .. that's life. In the immortal words of whoever it was that said it, "life wasn't meant to be easy", and it usually lives up to that.
-
These are tough times, you may need take what you can get. If its for MS and you work reasonably hard and effectively then the contract will probably be extended. Getting a few months experience at MS at the start of a career is better than sitting on your butt waiting for something more lucrative, and it won't harm your future employment prospects either. The ecommuny is apparently undergoing a sprouts lead recovery, so in a few months you might be able to get a job at a state owned bank and take home a fortune in stock options and bonuses to make up for the paltry amount you'll make at MS :laugh:
Multi famam, conscientiam pauci verentur.(Pliny)
urbane.tiger wrote:
make up for the paltry amount you'll make at MS
Sure the economy is improving, but it looks like MS is paying decently, it's the middle-man who is taking too much.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
-
See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer[^] It says Texas regulates the use of the term "Software Engineer". And even more, Texas bans anyone from writing real-time code without an engineering license. Well quite nice since they have all this staff working on space related products.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
That is ridiculous. I'd take any home grown geeky opcode gumshoe over a "degree holder" ANY DAY when I'm hiring - and I'd consider them an engineer if they got mad skills coding. Engineering in the abstract is not something I think that can be entirely taught... I believe it takes various schools of thought :suss: - creative thinking :^) : a left brain/right brain approach :omg: . coding 5 years? Not an engineer in my book... :laugh: coding over 10... :-\ you're getting there. Degree? :wtf: Don't care... :^) unless it's in another field applicable to the code being developed... such as, for the mars money pit: Electrical engineer + Developer = probably a good canidate for writing robot code for such fruitless endeavors :) As for the thread topic - 20$ per hour stuff - If you're broke... take it, if not .. keep shopping. Consulting is not the gig it once was... you need a niche. Technology was hot so everyone jumped in - now we have global this and that bringing prices down. Well... the fact is - when people do it for a job - their skill set is just that: a job skill... If you love this stuff.. I mean really dig it? Then you will become great, and you will stand out from the crowd ... and if not by future emplorers... by your own clients when you finally decide to go for it on your own and risk your shirt :) Software Engineers? Having a track record of building software that runs fast and does its job as desired is the measure in my book :thumbsup: , not the paper in the frame on the wall :doh: --Jason
Know way too many languages... master of none!
-
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-jackson24-2009jul24,0,2340868.story[^] The guy was paid 150,000$/month!! So that comes up to over 900$/hour. That did not save the singer anyway.
You can't turn lead into gold, unless you've built yourself a nuclear plant.
-
I need to rethink it. I'm doing mostly C# now, so no
deleteoperator and no destructors.Software Zen:
delete this; -
The term you're looking for is annual rate. If it's a 3mo position you get 1/4th of it, just like if your hourly rate is $30 and you bill your customer for 30m, you get $15. :rolleyes:
The European Way of War: Blow your own continent up. The American Way of War: Go over and help them.
-
I just received a call from redmond based recruiter (client microsoft). It was 'software design engineer in test 1' position, with 6 month to 1 year of experience. After asking all the question about my experience, they say the maximum they can offer is 22$/hr with no benifits. Should an engineer be paid that low? Does it look alllright? I know microsoft reputation is not great but but i think it is the agency who is making big here. What do you ppl think? Any such experience. I have been offered such salary ranges before by this company and it seems it is ok.
Microsoft starts employees at $80,000 USD + benefits for full-time software testing positions in Redmond. I don't mean an internal "beta tester" - I mean a software engineer/developer who actually writes tests and such. My friend got a job at Microsoft right out of university as a tester (since has moved to Vancouver and still works for MS). He writes tests for the Windows Media Player installer :)