US middle east relations
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My apologies for jumping back into some discussions. I have been off line over the weekend and just now reading some of the threads. Just one general comment that I feel most have missed. My perception is that most on this site are under 30 with a few just over. For those who are not over 40 I really do not think you appreciate what the cold war was and the paranoia that existed. Just as many in the middle east are (have) grown up being taught that everything that is wrong is the fault of the US when I was in school I was taught that everything wrong was due to the evil commies. We had fall out drills every few weeks. That does leave an impression. The US supported Israel due to being very worried about what are all of those Russian's (Jewish immigrants) may be doing. We had better do anything we can to make sure they are not commies. The same goes true with Iran and the Shah. we can let a commie government stand or get a pro democracy government (ignoring if they are democratic or not) and one that lets us use bases in their land to monitor (OK SPY) on the Russians. There was very little done with the intent to harm the native inhabitants. But hind site is always better isn’t it. Now if all of this is justified or not is impossible to say. After watching a few episodes of "The Soviet War Machine" on the history channel I would have to say the correct choices where made but that is allowing that view to sway the decision. One question: How long before we forgive a people for what they have done? Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have. How many generations have to pay for those mistakes? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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My apologies for jumping back into some discussions. I have been off line over the weekend and just now reading some of the threads. Just one general comment that I feel most have missed. My perception is that most on this site are under 30 with a few just over. For those who are not over 40 I really do not think you appreciate what the cold war was and the paranoia that existed. Just as many in the middle east are (have) grown up being taught that everything that is wrong is the fault of the US when I was in school I was taught that everything wrong was due to the evil commies. We had fall out drills every few weeks. That does leave an impression. The US supported Israel due to being very worried about what are all of those Russian's (Jewish immigrants) may be doing. We had better do anything we can to make sure they are not commies. The same goes true with Iran and the Shah. we can let a commie government stand or get a pro democracy government (ignoring if they are democratic or not) and one that lets us use bases in their land to monitor (OK SPY) on the Russians. There was very little done with the intent to harm the native inhabitants. But hind site is always better isn’t it. Now if all of this is justified or not is impossible to say. After watching a few episodes of "The Soviet War Machine" on the history channel I would have to say the correct choices where made but that is allowing that view to sway the decision. One question: How long before we forgive a people for what they have done? Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have. How many generations have to pay for those mistakes? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. Just type in Truman, Isreal, Russia in Google. One hit is http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm[^] What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Reverend Stan wrote: That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. Just type in Truman, Isreal, Russia in Google. One hit is http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/israel.htm[^] What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
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You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Reverend Stan wrote: I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I must agree with you, Several years ago while travelling I was impressed by the quantity and diversity of people who had been taught to hate the US. Many countries politicians don't wish to take the blame for their own failures, and this deflect it onto the USA. Sure the USA makes some screw-ups but overall I'm sure the USA is getting blamed for a lot of stuff they had no control over. On the other hand a lot of International mischief has been played by US and European transnational companies, the USA has got blamed for some of their behaviour as well, whilst not being an active participant. Personally I think the USA should stop **all it's foreign aid shipments and divert the funds into synergetic PR campaigns. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.**
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You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination:-D
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
Reverend Stan wrote: To virtually every European ..., the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. ... They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I am sorry, I simply disagree with this. It is difficult to crystalise down a diverse range of culture as exists in Europe to one single point of view. Many here in the UK view the US as our closest ally and the level of US investment here means that our welfare has improved, not declined, if any. As the recent German elections show, often US policies can be slated in order to gain political mileage and mask the real issues here which include low productivity growth, poor economic performance and the lack of political will to put in place structural changes to change this (the *real* threat to our welfare). Don't believe what is said by politicans and certainly don't believe what is reported by the press. After all, pro-US sentiment in Europe will hardly make the news will it? There is a much more positive feeling for the US here in the EU than I think is commonly believed. Our social and economic policies just seem to differ. www.beachwizard.com/travelogue[^] "I spent a lot of my money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered" George Best.
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My apologies for jumping back into some discussions. I have been off line over the weekend and just now reading some of the threads. Just one general comment that I feel most have missed. My perception is that most on this site are under 30 with a few just over. For those who are not over 40 I really do not think you appreciate what the cold war was and the paranoia that existed. Just as many in the middle east are (have) grown up being taught that everything that is wrong is the fault of the US when I was in school I was taught that everything wrong was due to the evil commies. We had fall out drills every few weeks. That does leave an impression. The US supported Israel due to being very worried about what are all of those Russian's (Jewish immigrants) may be doing. We had better do anything we can to make sure they are not commies. The same goes true with Iran and the Shah. we can let a commie government stand or get a pro democracy government (ignoring if they are democratic or not) and one that lets us use bases in their land to monitor (OK SPY) on the Russians. There was very little done with the intent to harm the native inhabitants. But hind site is always better isn’t it. Now if all of this is justified or not is impossible to say. After watching a few episodes of "The Soviet War Machine" on the history channel I would have to say the correct choices where made but that is allowing that view to sway the decision. One question: How long before we forgive a people for what they have done? Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have. How many generations have to pay for those mistakes? "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. And if you see what whackos are the current US allies are (Afghan warlords, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia *) I would almost be willing to bet on the "axis of evil 2020". The support for the Taliban or the Irak isn't so many generations away (like less than 1). I guess germany & WW2 has already been mentioned by someone else... *) nothing against them - I would perhaps invite them for a tea, but if I had a daughter I would not allow her marrying one of them
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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You and I belong to the same generation, Michael. I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. We had to do so unconventionally due to the existence of nuclear weapons. We may have made mistakes but we successfully performed our duty to the world by our defeat of that system in a way that was far more peaceful, and saved far more lives, than could have been hoped for by any other strategy. To the extent our establishment of the Shah in Iran helped that effort than it was the right thing to do. I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. It is the same reason we continue to treat Cuba as we do (not that I lose any love for Cuba - or Israel for that matter). I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. One mission we trained on most carefully was the application of tactical nuclear weapons in a way to minimize the danger of fallout to civilian populations. Whether they wish to accept it or not, every European living today owes their life and their liberty to the wisdom of the U.S. political system. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
The post-war USSR was definitely worse than the post-war US, but it wasn't the hellmouth you describe. Maybe some a little bit of the anti-commie-propaganda stuck, too...
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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Reverend Stan wrote: I personally do not believe that Israel played any large roll in our grand strategy against the USSR. That's because lack of knowledge. In 1970 went to a major war risk to prevent USSR sponsored revolution in Jordan. Israel prevented soviet domination over oil. Also mossad supplied vital intelligance. Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination:-D
Felix Gartsman wrote: Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. Jews may not be aiming for world domination but they have definetly influenced US policy and, frankly, some of the policy choices go against America's self-interest. When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. And people then wonder why America is hated! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. Jews may not be aiming for world domination but they have definetly influenced US policy and, frankly, some of the policy choices go against America's self-interest. When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. And people then wonder why America is hated! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azz wrote: people then wonder why America is hated I don't.
So in the interests of survival, they trained themselves to be agreeing machines instead of thinking machines. All their minds had to do was to discover what other people were thinking, and then they thought that, too."
Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut -
Reverend Stan wrote: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to suggest, but the USSR was the single most evil political system that has ever existed in human history. That was not a product of "paranoia" it was as real as NAZIism and even more dangerous. Our defense of the world against it was completely justified. I'm sorry, but you've seen too many movies. The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. Nor was it ever a good excuse for invading other countries and trying to impliment 'forced democracy', which is an oxymoron BTW. Reverend Stan wrote: I spent most of the 70's and 80's training to fight the "Soviet War Machine", so I have a good idea of what it was capable of. Oops - I guess that's why your viewpoint is somewhat coloured. Christian Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: The pseudo-communist system was far worse under Stalin than at any time after that, and was never the threat the US imagined. But that is the time frame we are talking about here, 1948 (Israel) to 1953 (Iran), and do not forget Korea in the middle. After that we are paying for what the Arab world took as an attack on them. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I am not saying it was a product of paranoia. But in the post WWII era the west was paranoid about communism. Justification is not the issue here. But isn't paranoia without justification simply a dillusional condition? I will confess to being a bit sensitive to the suggestion that our opposition to communism was in any way an overreaction. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: It may not have been part of our grand strategy but our support was directly due to our concern for the stability of the region becoming communist. If so, I would certainly rate it as one of our rather more obvious miscalculations. Still, if it did help, than I'm comfortable with it. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I am trying to convey is the fact that many decisions made in the late 40's to mid 60's and even into the 80's was to attack communism. Not against the people caught in the middle. Most on this list I do not believe appreciate that fact and due to that why the US made many decisions that now seem bad. We certainly agree on that. However, I think the problem goes much deeper than simply a failure to appreciate reality. To virtually every European and many on the American left, the U.S. represents an equal but opposite evil to that which the USSR represented. As long as the USSR existed the two evils cancelled each other out. They view themselves as representative of a happy middle ground between the extremes of Soviet communism and American capitalism. And they view any opposition to American hegemony as being prefectly justified. In other words, people are being taught (brainwashed) to believe that we represent a threat to their welfare. This is a pervasive and growing international attitude. I'm not a real reverend, I just play one on CP.
c'mon Rev, not everybody who disagrees with how the US handles international relations is brainwashed. In the same turn, US americans are brainwashed to believe the world would be a better place if everything would be handled the american way. We are all what we learn.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Yes the US has supported some regimes that it should not have The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. And if you see what whackos are the current US allies are (Afghan warlords, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia *) I would almost be willing to bet on the "axis of evil 2020". The support for the Taliban or the Irak isn't so many generations away (like less than 1). I guess germany & WW2 has already been mentioned by someone else... *) nothing against them - I would perhaps invite them for a tea, but if I had a daughter I would not allow her marrying one of them
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
peterchen wrote: The problem I see is that it's still the same game: todays friend is tomorrows enemy. Short-sighted, short-lived alliances. You are missing my point, what started this. The war against communism. That was not short-sighted or short-lived. But do to that some alliances were created to fight a greater evil, it was a decision to be made in that time and has to be looked at in that time frame, not todays, which is the common error I see many making. "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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c'mon Rev, not everybody who disagrees with how the US handles international relations is brainwashed. In the same turn, US americans are brainwashed to believe the world would be a better place if everything would be handled the american way. We are all what we learn.
Auch den Schatten will ich lieben weil ich manchmal lieber frier' Rosenstolz [sighist]
On a lighter side of your comment. Who isn't brainwashed. We just need to understand we are:) More by our local media than anything else:) "If I won't be myself, who will?" Alfred Hitchcock
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Reverend Stan wrote: I am afraid that I would have to agree with the average Muslim that our support of Israel has more to do with the influence of the varioius Jewish political organizations on our government than on any military need. I just can't wait to discover the secret handshake of the elder zionist council for world domination You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. Jews may not be aiming for world domination but they have definetly influenced US policy and, frankly, some of the policy choices go against America's self-interest. When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. And people then wonder why America is hated! Brian Azzopardi bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
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Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
Felix Gartsman wrote: And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Well aren't there? And don't they? Ever heard of NorAid? It is an Irish-American organisation to help the IRA. Yes, America did support the IRA sending it weapons and money. Felix Gartsman wrote: Like typical anti-semitism story I knew you were gonna say this. You are accusing me of being an anti-semite yet you don't know me. Were did I say that all Jews should be killed? I did not say that. What I did say was that Jews and other interest groups have undue influence on US policy making. Yes, even the Irish. If saying the above makes me an anti-semite and a racist then God help us! By the same standards I must be anti-French coz I dislike escargot! Accusing people of being anti-semitic/racist is common tactic to shut people up and stifle debate. It is also a cheap one. Because someone does not agree with you does not make them anti-semitic. Hurling such an accusation at your opponenet without proof lowers the level of debate and debases the word "anti-semite". Frankly, grow up! Felix Gartsman wrote: Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred What arab propoganda? Was there or not a massacre in Beirut in the 80's? I condemn strongly violence on both sides. Suicide bombers are nothing but terrorists but that does not make Sharon a holy man either. I don't read or need Arab or Israeli agitprop. I've got a brain and I like to use it. As for european self-hatred: what does that have to do with it? Lefies in Europe are against Isreali policy in the mid-east but please do not confuse me with them. I'm nothing if not right-wing; however I also try to be objective. Both Isreal and the Palestinians have alot to answer for. Brian Azzopardi PS, How much are the new settlements in the Gaza strip going for? I'm interested in one you see :) bibamus, edamus, cras moriemur
[eat, drink, for tomorrow we die]
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Brian Azz wrote: You may ridicule Stan's point but doing so does not answer it. When important people in the US administration are Jewish then automatically policy will reflect those people's prejudices, even if unitentionally. The current US spokeman on Defece (Wolfowitz) is Jewish. In the recent past a former Secretary of State (Henry Kissinger) is also Jewish - and he is still influential behind the scenes. And dozens of high level officials are Irish, so the US supported IRA? Like typical anti-semitism story, being a Jew gives you mythical powers so everyone obeys you. Brian Azz wrote: When the current US administration spectacularly declared that Ariel Sharon (also known as the Butcher of Beirut) is a "man of peace" the whole world was stunned. Lovely to see arab propoganda blended with european self-hatred.
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so the US supported IRA? Ever heard of NORAID Felix? Please get your facts right.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
I can't help wondering what will happen with Bush's war on terrorism if he desides to get involved in the whole N.Ireland conflict :( -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit!