"Does the GPL matter?" from today's Insider
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this;Our company lawyers won't let us anywhere near the GPL. LGPL is OK though, which is a relief.
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
The GPL is a virus! :)
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I'd have classified it as evil, pure and simple. But that's just me.
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this;If it's anything to do with work I autmatically ignore anything GPLed, it's too big a risk. Some things such as gSOAP are available under GPL for free or a commercial license for very moderate prices.
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this;I completely disagree with you but you get my 5 for provoking what should be a great conversation. Just because someone has released their source does not mean that you have to use it or copy it and add it to your products. If you don't want to play by the GPL then don't use GPL code. If you want to benefit from using the GPL code then use it and pass the benefits on. As you say "For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write." It's like drinking in a pub, if you want to stand your own corner then do so but don't join in the rounds when it's someone else's turn only to say I'll get my own when it's your round. Where GPL code is really useful commercially is in things like hardware development. A company builds a router which looks pretty, has nicely coloured lights on the front, a streamlined plug and uses less power than comparable routers. The guys who put this package together need to be able to run some router software so they ship it with a modified version of tomato firmware which costs them nothing but they have to publish their updates for everyone to use. In this case they've made some UI changes to the firmware which may benefit another company but most importantly they've taken some good firmware and improved it for their specific product, made some visual enhancements etc and becuse what they're really taking money for is a hardware product it doesn't matter at all that other people might benefit from these changes.
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary Wheeler wrote:
What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well.
That is untrue. As long as you do not link against (on source level or binary level) GPL protected utilities, your application is not tainted. If the utility is LPGPL'd, it allows you to link against it on a binary level (dynamic loading due to technical reasons. Static linking is basically just a special case of linking against source...)
Gary Wheeler wrote:
They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why?
To demonstrate that you are free to do what you wish with it, as long as you don't take the freedom away from others. It's a philosophical standpoint on the definition of freedom.
Gary Wheeler wrote:
Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters.
The GPL was created to prevent the reverse - to make it less easy for companies to just take their code and make it their own. + the usual philosophical crap from Stallman. I use plenty of GPL-licensed code in a way that doesn't taint our own products. Any modifications I've made, I publish as a zip-file on our web site.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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My answer: Not in the commercial world it doesn't, it never has, and probably never will. Any license that requires you give away the source code is foolish. What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. I don't believe the crap from the Free Software Foundation about ensuring 'freedom' for users to copy and change software. They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why? One person buys it, and then posts it on a file sharing site. Under the GPL, you have no legal recourse, as the GPL renders all software into the public domain. Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write.
Software Zen:
delete this;:thumbsup:
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I completely disagree with you but you get my 5 for provoking what should be a great conversation. Just because someone has released their source does not mean that you have to use it or copy it and add it to your products. If you don't want to play by the GPL then don't use GPL code. If you want to benefit from using the GPL code then use it and pass the benefits on. As you say "For this reason, I will never use GPL-licensed code in any application I write." It's like drinking in a pub, if you want to stand your own corner then do so but don't join in the rounds when it's someone else's turn only to say I'll get my own when it's your round. Where GPL code is really useful commercially is in things like hardware development. A company builds a router which looks pretty, has nicely coloured lights on the front, a streamlined plug and uses less power than comparable routers. The guys who put this package together need to be able to run some router software so they ship it with a modified version of tomato firmware which costs them nothing but they have to publish their updates for everyone to use. In this case they've made some UI changes to the firmware which may benefit another company but most importantly they've taken some good firmware and improved it for their specific product, made some visual enhancements etc and becuse what they're really taking money for is a hardware product it doesn't matter at all that other people might benefit from these changes.
Russell Jones wrote:
Where GPL code is really useful commercially is in things like hardware development
In the case you site, the value in the product is the hardware, not the software. The software is the ugly little truth required to make it work, but is not viewed as 'value added'. For that reason, a free software solution is ideal. My objection to GPL'ed software in commercial applications is the scenario where the software itself is the value part of the product. The GPL makes it impossible to realize that value, by making the source code freely available. If the GPL was not 'viral' (in other words, did not extend itself to containing applications), it would be far more palatable.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Gary Wheeler wrote:
What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well.
That is untrue. As long as you do not link against (on source level or binary level) GPL protected utilities, your application is not tainted. If the utility is LPGPL'd, it allows you to link against it on a binary level (dynamic loading due to technical reasons. Static linking is basically just a special case of linking against source...)
Gary Wheeler wrote:
They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why?
To demonstrate that you are free to do what you wish with it, as long as you don't take the freedom away from others. It's a philosophical standpoint on the definition of freedom.
Gary Wheeler wrote:
Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters.
The GPL was created to prevent the reverse - to make it less easy for companies to just take their code and make it their own. + the usual philosophical crap from Stallman. I use plenty of GPL-licensed code in a way that doesn't taint our own products. Any modifications I've made, I publish as a zip-file on our web site.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
According to legal opinions I've read, if you use GPL'ed source code anywhere in your application, that places the entire application under the GPL, regardless of any object/binary or other boundaries.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Russell Jones wrote:
Where GPL code is really useful commercially is in things like hardware development
In the case you site, the value in the product is the hardware, not the software. The software is the ugly little truth required to make it work, but is not viewed as 'value added'. For that reason, a free software solution is ideal. My objection to GPL'ed software in commercial applications is the scenario where the software itself is the value part of the product. The GPL makes it impossible to realize that value, by making the source code freely available. If the GPL was not 'viral' (in other words, did not extend itself to containing applications), it would be far more palatable.
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary Wheeler wrote:
If the GPL was not 'viral' (in other words, did not extend itself to containing applications), it would be far more palatable.
That's the point though, if you want to go your own way and develop the solution on your own, that's cool. If you want to use my code which I'll give you for free then you have to pass the favour on. I don't see that it can be seen as a good or bad thing, if you don't like the terms then don't use the code but it'll cost you more to develop your product.
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According to legal opinions I've read, if you use GPL'ed source code anywhere in your application, that places the entire application under the GPL, regardless of any object/binary or other boundaries.
Software Zen:
delete this;Yes, if you link to it. If you do
ShellExecute("gpl.exe", ...);you're in the clear.-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
If the GPL was not 'viral' (in other words, did not extend itself to containing applications), it would be far more palatable.
That's the point though, if you want to go your own way and develop the solution on your own, that's cool. If you want to use my code which I'll give you for free then you have to pass the favour on. I don't see that it can be seen as a good or bad thing, if you don't like the terms then don't use the code but it'll cost you more to develop your product.
It's the "pass the favour on" part that's the problem. According to the GPL, not only do I have to pass your free code on, I've just made my code free as well. I would have no problem making your code freely available if that is your wish. My source code, however, represents a substantial investment of time and money, and I intend to recoup that investment by charging for it. The GPL makes it impossible to do so effectively.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Yes, if you link to it. If you do
ShellExecute("gpl.exe", ...);you're in the clear.-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
I'm sure explaining that sort of distinction in a court of law is an easy task :rolleyes:.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I'm sure explaining that sort of distinction in a court of law is an easy task :rolleyes:.
Software Zen:
delete this;Yes, yes it is actually. Especially when the GPL (v2 did at least, haven't read v3), explicitly states that executables aren't covered. Besides, the operating system is a mediator between you and the CPU. If the operating system could not be able to load the executable without being tainted by some foreign license, then the entire free software movement would've been shot to hell faster than Stallman is able to pronounce gee-pee-ell. They'd still be the three guys in the MIT basement.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well.
That is untrue. As long as you do not link against (on source level or binary level) GPL protected utilities, your application is not tainted. If the utility is LPGPL'd, it allows you to link against it on a binary level (dynamic loading due to technical reasons. Static linking is basically just a special case of linking against source...)
Gary Wheeler wrote:
They even claim (wink wink, nudge nudge) that you can charge for GPL'ed software. Why?
To demonstrate that you are free to do what you wish with it, as long as you don't take the freedom away from others. It's a philosophical standpoint on the definition of freedom.
Gary Wheeler wrote:
Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters.
The GPL was created to prevent the reverse - to make it less easy for companies to just take their code and make it their own. + the usual philosophical crap from Stallman. I use plenty of GPL-licensed code in a way that doesn't taint our own products. Any modifications I've made, I publish as a zip-file on our web site.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. That is untrue. As long as you do not link against (on source level or binary level) GPL protected utilities, your application is not tainted. If the utility is LPGPL'd, it allows you to link against it on a binary level (dynamic loading due to technical reasons. Static linking is basically just a special case of linking against source...)
You are the one that is wrong. There are several existing case law judgements in favor of GPL for just that. The most famous one being where MySQL was used as a data repository for a proprietary application. GPL won and the company lost the rights to their own code. (has happened at least twice on a major scale now)
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. The GPL was created to prevent the reverse - to make it less easy for companies to just take their code and make it their own. + the usual philosophical crap from Stallman.
And wrong again. Copyright actually covers the case you state. GPL does actually address allowing others to use your contributions freely. That IS what GPL is all about. Allow you to make modifications to code I wrote under a GPL without you being fearful of a lawsuit from me.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: What's even more insidious about the GPL is that if you use utility code covered by the GPL, the GPL metastasizes to include your application as well. That is untrue. As long as you do not link against (on source level or binary level) GPL protected utilities, your application is not tainted. If the utility is LPGPL'd, it allows you to link against it on a binary level (dynamic loading due to technical reasons. Static linking is basically just a special case of linking against source...)
You are the one that is wrong. There are several existing case law judgements in favor of GPL for just that. The most famous one being where MySQL was used as a data repository for a proprietary application. GPL won and the company lost the rights to their own code. (has happened at least twice on a major scale now)
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Gary Wheeler wrote: Frankly, I believe the purpose of the GPL is to make it easier for mother's basement boys like Richard Stallman to steal the hard work of their betters. The GPL was created to prevent the reverse - to make it less easy for companies to just take their code and make it their own. + the usual philosophical crap from Stallman.
And wrong again. Copyright actually covers the case you state. GPL does actually address allowing others to use your contributions freely. That IS what GPL is all about. Allow you to make modifications to code I wrote under a GPL without you being fearful of a lawsuit from me.
Brian W King wrote:
The most famous one being where MySQL was used as a data repository for a proprietary application.
I've not read the details of the hearings or the verdicts from that case. I do know however that if you want to use MySQL successfully, you should use their client libraries. They are GPL:ed, which means that you may NOT link with them. I very much doubt they access the database using command line applications (or whatever). If you can write your own client libraries, or use others that aren't GPLd, for communicating with the MySQL database, the license can't touch you or your application. Everything else is FUD.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit