Campaign for official apology to Alan Turing
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Who is going to apologise? A bunch of vote seeking politicians that had nothing to do with the law or its enforcement. I don't see how anybody benefits from people of this time apologising for something that happened in the past. If they had convicted someone today for being homosexual, I can see it mattering a lot that they release a person and apologise with sincerity. But the actions were not theirs. It won't stop Turing being a great mathematician, and it won't stop his world changing work having been done. Those that care / understand his contribution to the world will not think less of him for what the lawmakers and governments of the past ultimately did to him. It's like Tony Blair ALMOST apologising for slavery. Did he enslave anybody? Does the UK support slavery now? What good is an apology for something that already happened and he had no control over. I don't think discrimination is at all fair be it against sexuality, race, religion or social standing. It's truly horrible that these things exist in today's world, but let's look at them for what they were then, see why they were wrong, learn from those lessons and make a change for tomorrow. I would rather that than have insincere, empty apologies for something you or your government didn't do.
hammerstein05 wrote:
What good is an apology for something that already happened and he had no control over.
Because the actions of the oppressors might have been done a long time back, but the memories and consequences linger. An apology marks a formal acknowledgement of wrongdoing and helps people move on (granted of course, you have to do more than apologise). I remember the outpouring of emotion when Australian Prime Minister Rudd apologised on Sorry Day[^]
Cheers, Vikram. (Proud to have finally cracked a CCC!)
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Henry Minute wrote:
Who would benefit from that?
Society as a whole would benefit and he makes a perfect figure head to stand in for everyone else convicted under that law. The apology should mention them as well whether it's an apology or an admission of wrongdoing, whatever. Aside from the law itself he was hounded to the point of suicide despite being a war hero and a genius and contributing greatly to the world and we here have all benefited from his work and a bit of gratitude and shedding light on such an important person (even leaving the issues aside) would not be a bad thing surely? There are parallels with today such as the large number of linguists discharged by the U.S. military for being homosexual despite being desperately needed.
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
How is a freaking apology going to help? They are empty words for God sake. Moreover, they are meaningless; is the US government going to apologize because my great-great-grandfather lost his home due to mobs violating his constitutional rights? Of course not; the current government had nothing to do with that and neither does anyone on the planet earth. If I were to hold a grudge for that or not "move on" would make me a complete idiot. There are many times you shrug and get the fuck on with your life. That aside, I'm skeptical that Turing committed suicide because he was "hounded"; everything I've read indicated that he was a very troubled man apart from anything the government or anyone else did.
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hammerstein05 wrote:
What good is an apology for something that already happened and he had no control over.
Because the actions of the oppressors might have been done a long time back, but the memories and consequences linger. An apology marks a formal acknowledgement of wrongdoing and helps people move on (granted of course, you have to do more than apologise). I remember the outpouring of emotion when Australian Prime Minister Rudd apologised on Sorry Day[^]
Cheers, Vikram. (Proud to have finally cracked a CCC!)
I am from a working class British family. I appreciate that I can never understand a life of oppression and discrimination. But my point was that the people acknowledging that it was wrong and shameful are people who are in a world even less likely to appreciate it than even me. We know what was done, we know what was done was wrong, and we learn more from those lessons and make the world a better place. I guess I can't understand how those living in better times, be they relatives (distant in the case of slavery, a generation or two in the case of Turing) or otherwise have anything to move on from. They are living in a time where things like this are now understood to be disgraceful (yet still happen in today's world). I don't mean to offend anybody with my ignorance. I feel that those discriminated against and oppressed in a time few of us can remember and even fewer of us took any part of are those that would need the apology, but from those performing the discrimination and oppression not from a government and society that has made it completely unacceptable already.
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How is a freaking apology going to help? They are empty words for God sake. Moreover, they are meaningless; is the US government going to apologize because my great-great-grandfather lost his home due to mobs violating his constitutional rights? Of course not; the current government had nothing to do with that and neither does anyone on the planet earth. If I were to hold a grudge for that or not "move on" would make me a complete idiot. There are many times you shrug and get the fuck on with your life. That aside, I'm skeptical that Turing committed suicide because he was "hounded"; everything I've read indicated that he was a very troubled man apart from anything the government or anyone else did.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
How is a freaking apology going to help? They are empty words for God sake. Moreover, they are meaningless; is the US government going to apologize because my great-great-grandfather lost his home due to mobs violating his constitutional rights? Of course not; the current government had nothing to do with that and neither does anyone on the planet earth. If I were to hold a grudge for that or not "move on" would make me a complete idiot. There are many times you shrug and get the f*** on with your life.
The real problem isn't in people flapping their gums generations down the line; but in the idiots unconstitutionally demanding compensation for what someone's deceased g'etc'grandpa did to their deceased g'etc'grandpa. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_attainder[^] (Specifically in this case the part about confiscating the offenders heirs property. eg my taxes being spent to compensate you for your deceased g'etc'grandpa's losses.)
The European Way of War: Blow your own continent up. The American Way of War: Go over and help them.
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I am from a working class British family. I appreciate that I can never understand a life of oppression and discrimination. But my point was that the people acknowledging that it was wrong and shameful are people who are in a world even less likely to appreciate it than even me. We know what was done, we know what was done was wrong, and we learn more from those lessons and make the world a better place. I guess I can't understand how those living in better times, be they relatives (distant in the case of slavery, a generation or two in the case of Turing) or otherwise have anything to move on from. They are living in a time where things like this are now understood to be disgraceful (yet still happen in today's world). I don't mean to offend anybody with my ignorance. I feel that those discriminated against and oppressed in a time few of us can remember and even fewer of us took any part of are those that would need the apology, but from those performing the discrimination and oppression not from a government and society that has made it completely unacceptable already.
All good and admirable points, we'll have to agree to disagree. For the record, I didn't find your statements offensive, simply something I don't agree with.
Cheers, Vikram. (Proud to have finally cracked a CCC!)
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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing[^]
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
Ok, now, I don't mean to sound like an ass, but: 1. Yes he was a brilliant man, some argue a leader in his field, but with the war over, his one shining achievement was just that, ONE shining achievement. Who is to say he would have ever had another one? After all, by the time of his death his interests were moving from Computing to Chemistry. 2.
Turing was homosexual, living in an era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness and homosexual acts were illegal.
Now, as wrong as we perceive this to be today, those were the attitudes and the laws of the time. Really, who are we to judge history? Does this mean that all "wrong" rulings in regards to all homosexuals that were ever tried and convicted under this law will get an apology? Or just Turing? We have to remember, that if the government of now apologizes, they accept that they were liable for damages caused by the ruling and the law at the time. Which thus opens them up to lawsuits from people who were convicted of the law and may still be alive today. 3. One other thing that I would like to note:
Because Turing's homosexuality was perceived as a security risk, the possibility of assassination has also been suggested.[37] Supporters of the assassination theory point out that Turing's British passport was not revoked after his conviction (although he was denied entry to the United States). He was still free to teach mathematics and to travel to other European countries, which he did on many occasions.
So this could mean that, while yes, the legal ruling handed down by the government as a result of him breaking a (what we now consider to be a wrongful) law. His death in 1954 may have nothing to do with that. We have to also take into account the times in which he lived, and the world in which he lived. Something that people have trouble doing now that they don't live in the threat of being nuked every second of the day and they don't have to worry that the new guy in town may be a spy ready to pump you for information. (Now we only have to worry about his C4 laden underpants). One more thing: What good would an apology do after all these years? After all, those who consider him a homosexual will still paint him the same after the apology, and those of us in the computing world who know what he did and recognize his achievements are able to see past that part of his life and recognize the achievements that he made before his "unjust" conviction. -Kas
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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing[^]
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
Waste of time
I have now moved to Sweden for love (awwww). If you're in Scandinavia and want an MVP on the payroll (or happy with a remote worker), or need cotract work done, give me a job! http://cv.imcsoft.co.uk/[^]
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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing[^]
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
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http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing[^]
"Creating your own blog is about as easy as creating your own urine, and you're about as likely to find someone else interested in it." -- Lore Sjöberg
I don't think one ought compare a posthumous, belated apology to an individual, with an apology to a whole class of people such Rudd's to the Australian Aboriginals. I doubt that there is anyone alive today who is suffering directly as a result of the consequences Turing's mistreatment. That is not true of Australian Aboriginals, there many people alive today who were forcibly taken away from their mothers and their culture. There are many people alive today whose wages were trousered by state governments to be "invested for the future benefit of the worker", no benefits were ever forthcoming, the governments are still arguing the toss over what fraction of what they trousered they will give back as compensation - the mind boggles. And what did the unions do about governments taking all of the workers wages in exchange for a bag of flour, a tin of dripping, some tea and two ounces of tobacco, sweet fanny adams is what the bloody unions did. So those who would say its all in the past, you are wrong, you are dead wrong, its not in the past the victims are still alive, as are the beneficiaries, in many cases it was a zero sum game. The wealth of countries like Australia, the United States, Britain, France etc resulted from the dispossession and exploitation of others. Look at Belgium's record, that's right poor little Belgium, the millions dying in the DRC today are in part a consequence of Belgium's appalling colonial history - read Conrad's Heart of Darkness. I have the greatest of respect for Alan Turing, but I wont stand for his plight being compared with that of the Australian Aborigines or similarly dispossessed and exploited people. For the record I am a white naturalised (I hate that word) Australian.
Spike Mulligan is at WW2 Conscription intake centre. Officer asks "Where you born Mulligan". "India, sir", Mulligan briskly replies. "Which part" asks the officer. To which Spike replies "All of me, sir".
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Since I have known about computers and computing I have been aware of the contribution of Alan Turing, and have always admired him. However, I do not see that an apology would serve any purpose. Who would benefit from that? His conviction was for breaking a bad law, but many more people than he were also convicted and a lot of them had their lives ruined. An apology to all of them might make some sense, but singling out Turing, makes none to me.
Henry Minute Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?" “I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
Henry Minute wrote:
His conviction was for breaking a bad law, but many more people than he were also convicted and a lot of them had their lives ruined. An apology to all of them might make some sense, but singling out Turing, makes none to me.
To be fair of course similar laws still exist in many places and some with much more severe penalties. One might hope (probably wild optimists) that such an act for a prominent figure might lead to other laws being removed or at least lessened.
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I am from a working class British family. I appreciate that I can never understand a life of oppression and discrimination. But my point was that the people acknowledging that it was wrong and shameful are people who are in a world even less likely to appreciate it than even me. We know what was done, we know what was done was wrong, and we learn more from those lessons and make the world a better place. I guess I can't understand how those living in better times, be they relatives (distant in the case of slavery, a generation or two in the case of Turing) or otherwise have anything to move on from. They are living in a time where things like this are now understood to be disgraceful (yet still happen in today's world). I don't mean to offend anybody with my ignorance. I feel that those discriminated against and oppressed in a time few of us can remember and even fewer of us took any part of are those that would need the apology, but from those performing the discrimination and oppression not from a government and society that has made it completely unacceptable already.
hammerstein05 wrote:
I don't mean to offend anybody with my ignorance. I feel that those discriminated against and oppressed in a time few of us can remember and even fewer of us took any part of are those that would need the apology
A time when few can remember? Quite possible that depending on your age your parents and grandparents remember it quite well since they were undoubtly living in 1952-1954. As are quite a few other people who are still alive.
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Ok, now, I don't mean to sound like an ass, but: 1. Yes he was a brilliant man, some argue a leader in his field, but with the war over, his one shining achievement was just that, ONE shining achievement. Who is to say he would have ever had another one? After all, by the time of his death his interests were moving from Computing to Chemistry. 2.
Turing was homosexual, living in an era when homosexuality was considered a mental illness and homosexual acts were illegal.
Now, as wrong as we perceive this to be today, those were the attitudes and the laws of the time. Really, who are we to judge history? Does this mean that all "wrong" rulings in regards to all homosexuals that were ever tried and convicted under this law will get an apology? Or just Turing? We have to remember, that if the government of now apologizes, they accept that they were liable for damages caused by the ruling and the law at the time. Which thus opens them up to lawsuits from people who were convicted of the law and may still be alive today. 3. One other thing that I would like to note:
Because Turing's homosexuality was perceived as a security risk, the possibility of assassination has also been suggested.[37] Supporters of the assassination theory point out that Turing's British passport was not revoked after his conviction (although he was denied entry to the United States). He was still free to teach mathematics and to travel to other European countries, which he did on many occasions.
So this could mean that, while yes, the legal ruling handed down by the government as a result of him breaking a (what we now consider to be a wrongful) law. His death in 1954 may have nothing to do with that. We have to also take into account the times in which he lived, and the world in which he lived. Something that people have trouble doing now that they don't live in the threat of being nuked every second of the day and they don't have to worry that the new guy in town may be a spy ready to pump you for information. (Now we only have to worry about his C4 laden underpants). One more thing: What good would an apology do after all these years? After all, those who consider him a homosexual will still paint him the same after the apology, and those of us in the computing world who know what he did and recognize his achievements are able to see past that part of his life and recognize the achievements that he made before his "unjust" conviction. -Kas
Kasterborus wrote:
Or just Turing? We have to remember, that if the government of now apologizes, they accept that they were liable for damages caused by the ruling and the law at the time. Which thus opens them up to lawsuits from people who were convicted of the law and may still be alive today.
Must be one really, really weird government where one action must inevitably lead to liability for the government. Certainly there are many actions by many governments every day where that doesn't happen because governments by their very nature can deny that. So what makes this particular one special?
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Kasterborus wrote:
Or just Turing? We have to remember, that if the government of now apologizes, they accept that they were liable for damages caused by the ruling and the law at the time. Which thus opens them up to lawsuits from people who were convicted of the law and may still be alive today.
Must be one really, really weird government where one action must inevitably lead to liability for the government. Certainly there are many actions by many governments every day where that doesn't happen because governments by their very nature can deny that. So what makes this particular one special?
jschell wrote:
Must be one really, really weird government where one action must inevitably lead to liability for the government. Certainly there are many actions by many governments every day where that doesn't happen because governments by their very nature can deny that. So what makes this particular one special?
Basically, like Turing, what will happen is that they will say: "You have now admitted that what you ruled was wrong, that the law was unjust! My life, my family, my career, they were all destroyed by that ruling! I want compensation for the fact that you ruined my life!" At least, that is what would happen here in Australia and I'm sure in America... -Kasterborus
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I don't think one ought compare a posthumous, belated apology to an individual, with an apology to a whole class of people such Rudd's to the Australian Aboriginals. I doubt that there is anyone alive today who is suffering directly as a result of the consequences Turing's mistreatment. That is not true of Australian Aboriginals, there many people alive today who were forcibly taken away from their mothers and their culture. There are many people alive today whose wages were trousered by state governments to be "invested for the future benefit of the worker", no benefits were ever forthcoming, the governments are still arguing the toss over what fraction of what they trousered they will give back as compensation - the mind boggles. And what did the unions do about governments taking all of the workers wages in exchange for a bag of flour, a tin of dripping, some tea and two ounces of tobacco, sweet fanny adams is what the bloody unions did. So those who would say its all in the past, you are wrong, you are dead wrong, its not in the past the victims are still alive, as are the beneficiaries, in many cases it was a zero sum game. The wealth of countries like Australia, the United States, Britain, France etc resulted from the dispossession and exploitation of others. Look at Belgium's record, that's right poor little Belgium, the millions dying in the DRC today are in part a consequence of Belgium's appalling colonial history - read Conrad's Heart of Darkness. I have the greatest of respect for Alan Turing, but I wont stand for his plight being compared with that of the Australian Aborigines or similarly dispossessed and exploited people. For the record I am a white naturalised (I hate that word) Australian.
Spike Mulligan is at WW2 Conscription intake centre. Officer asks "Where you born Mulligan". "India, sir", Mulligan briskly replies. "Which part" asks the officer. To which Spike replies "All of me, sir".
There are many people alive today whose wages were trousered by state governments to be "invested for the future benefit of the worker", no benefits were ever forthcoming, the governments are still arguing the toss over what fraction of what they trousered they will give back as compensation - the mind boggles That's every single one of us - right now - paying tax and "national insurance" for a worthless state pension that we'll probably not live long enough to be eligible to claim :mad:
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There are many people alive today whose wages were trousered by state governments to be "invested for the future benefit of the worker", no benefits were ever forthcoming, the governments are still arguing the toss over what fraction of what they trousered they will give back as compensation - the mind boggles That's every single one of us - right now - paying tax and "national insurance" for a worthless state pension that we'll probably not live long enough to be eligible to claim :mad:
CodeGimp wrote:
That's every single one of us - right now - paying tax and "national insurance" for a worthless state pension that we'll probably not live long enough to be eligible to claim Mad
you probably get to take home at least 60% of your earnings, you have the right to vote and you have the right to a passport, the people I'm talking about had none of those benefits up until the 1970's the government is not coercing you to live rough from what you can get off whatever remnants of land they've not taken, that's still happening! your children won't be taken from you unless you pose a serious risk to their well being your grandfather or father probably were not murdered when they wandered onto some graziers land grant your mother and grandmother were probably not raped by the local squatters, labourers, and their sons Before you compare your situation to that of the Australian Aborigine peoples you might want to have a look at some information at Creative Spirits[^], it may come as shock.
Spike Milligan is at WW2 Conscription intake centre. Officer asks "Where you born Milligan". "India, sir", Milligan briskly replies. "Which part" asks the officer. To which Spike replies "All of me, sir".
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CodeGimp wrote:
That's every single one of us - right now - paying tax and "national insurance" for a worthless state pension that we'll probably not live long enough to be eligible to claim Mad
you probably get to take home at least 60% of your earnings, you have the right to vote and you have the right to a passport, the people I'm talking about had none of those benefits up until the 1970's the government is not coercing you to live rough from what you can get off whatever remnants of land they've not taken, that's still happening! your children won't be taken from you unless you pose a serious risk to their well being your grandfather or father probably were not murdered when they wandered onto some graziers land grant your mother and grandmother were probably not raped by the local squatters, labourers, and their sons Before you compare your situation to that of the Australian Aborigine peoples you might want to have a look at some information at Creative Spirits[^], it may come as shock.
Spike Milligan is at WW2 Conscription intake centre. Officer asks "Where you born Milligan". "India, sir", Milligan briskly replies. "Which part" asks the officer. To which Spike replies "All of me, sir".
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It is just not a matter to be treated lightly, no more than is the issue of the persecution of Turing by the British government in the 50's. They are both tragic in every sense of the word, but they ought not be compared, which was the point of my first post. Your contribution to this particular sidetrack was, in my opinion, unfortunate. And although I have no doubt that there was no malicious intent, it was nevertheless thoughtless, and disrespectful - not to me, but to the victims of all forms of persecution.
Spike Milligan is at WW2 Conscription intake centre. Officer asks "Where you born Milligan". "India, sir", Milligan briskly replies. "Which part" asks the officer. To which Spike replies "All of me, sir".