Why Jonny Can't Code
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I'm sorry. The article does appear stupid to me, but I did fly off a little bit. I'm just not having a good day. The point appears to me to be that languages with line numbers and no OO are a better starting point than any modern language. I don't really agree. You can create a simple VB.NET project and write plenty of VB code, without having line numbers, which are only useful for arbitrary goto statements, something I don't think people need to learn about.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'm just not having a good day.
Eugenicists don't deserve to have a good day.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Where's the BASIC of today.
Perl.
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
I have Turbo BASIC on 5.25" floppies. P.S. Also HP BASIC on my AlphaServers, but it's a shame that DEC abandoned the BASIC environment that I first learned on the high school's PDP-11. :sigh:
JB> type test.bas
10 A=5
20 B=4
30 C=A*B
40 PRINT C
50 END
JB> basic test.bas
JB> link test
JB> run test
20
JB>modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 8:46 PM
PIEBALDconsult wrote:
Perl.
line noise
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I'm sorry. The article does appear stupid to me, but I did fly off a little bit. I'm just not having a good day. The point appears to me to be that languages with line numbers and no OO are a better starting point than any modern language. I don't really agree. You can create a simple VB.NET project and write plenty of VB code, without having line numbers, which are only useful for arbitrary goto statements, something I don't think people need to learn about.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
something I don't think people need to learn about
They should learn what not to do, and learning it in the first place is certainly a good start.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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ahmed zahmed wrote:
Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
Sure. Run MS-DOS 6.22 ina virtual machine.
Haha, actually I technically learned to program using Visual Basic in high school. However, in that same class I discovered QuickBasic 4.5 (in DOS 6.22) and abandoned Visual Basic. It was a very fun language. :)
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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Is this the same "Jonny" I know who grew up watching Scooby-Doo right after he got out of bed, before he even had his breakfast sugar-and-carbs load, before he took his ritalin before going off to school with his iPod playing "death metal" with the volume set to stun ? The same Jonny who knows more about the family life of the Simpsons than about his parents ? The same Jonny who has the attention span of a gnat ? It sure sounds like him. best, Bill p.s. Marc : let's not leave out "turtle graphics" !
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
BillWoodruff wrote:
turtle graphics
turn left: turn right 270 degrees :laugh:
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
ahmed zahmed wrote:
Where's the BASIC of today
Python or maybe Ruby probably fit the bill
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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Honestly I do not see what this guy's problem is ... he can simply go get FreeDOS and grab the Basic compiler from their available list of languages and run that in a VM, if he's that hard up to run an old version of basic like that. Or how about use a programming language specifically designed for kids? Like KPL[^]? The problem isn't the lack of machines to get kids interested, and it certainly isn't accessibility, since the internet has blown those doors wide ope, the real problem is a lack of kids that have a desire or interest in doing anything other playing video games, texting and updating Twitter with what they're doing now. But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about those ...
:..::. Douglas H. Troy ::..
Bad Astronomy |VCF|wxWidgets|WTLDitto. Programming is more accessible than ever. You could download Ruby and do "Hello World" in minutes. Or Python, or Visual Studio Express, or Java, or etc etc. There are simply too many distractions, and too much stigma with the geek/nerd label. And frankly I think computer science doesn't have the kind of "magic" it had way back (this is my impression of it because I'm not that old ;)). It's been commoditized.
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Is this the same "Jonny" I know who grew up watching Scooby-Doo right after he got out of bed, before he even had his breakfast sugar-and-carbs load, before he took his ritalin before going off to school with his iPod playing "death metal" with the volume set to stun ? The same Jonny who knows more about the family life of the Simpsons than about his parents ? The same Jonny who has the attention span of a gnat ? It sure sounds like him. best, Bill p.s. Marc : let's not leave out "turtle graphics" !
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
BillWoodruff wrote:
p.s. Marc : let's not leave out "turtle graphics" !
I was thinking about mentioning that! Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
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Ditto. Programming is more accessible than ever. You could download Ruby and do "Hello World" in minutes. Or Python, or Visual Studio Express, or Java, or etc etc. There are simply too many distractions, and too much stigma with the geek/nerd label. And frankly I think computer science doesn't have the kind of "magic" it had way back (this is my impression of it because I'm not that old ;)). It's been commoditized.
dighn wrote:
and do "Hello World" in minutes.
Not much beats: 10 Print "Hello World" run Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
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Christian Graus wrote:
something I don't think people need to learn about
They should learn what not to do, and learning it in the first place is certainly a good start.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
Rubbish. Learning to rely on something is not learning not to do it. I've learned not to kill people, by understanding the issue and ,well, not killing anyone.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I'm just not having a good day.
Eugenicists don't deserve to have a good day.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Eugenicists don't deserve to have a good day.
ROTFL !!! How come you have started to pollute the lounge with this ignorant drivel ? I mean, I was happy to play with your retarded views in the back room, is that not enough for you anymore ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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dighn wrote:
and do "Hello World" in minutes.
Not much beats: 10 Print "Hello World" run Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
true, BASIC is pretty simple and it's what I started coding with, but 'puts "Hello World"' is pretty simple too, and you can do a lot very easily with Ruby (just an example). The setup required is a non-issue if the guy installs it for his kid (not that it's complicated to begin with, since kids these days are pretty good at finding and using software.)
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
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Rubbish. Learning to rely on something is not learning not to do it. I've learned not to kill people, by understanding the issue and ,well, not killing anyone.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I've learned not to kill people
Better watch yourself, I'm still learning how to not kill people :menacing stare: And, actually, I'd say people who have killed probably better understand why one would not want to kill. Sure, you have a superficial understanding of it's wrong and would make you feel bad, but do you really know the depths to which you can really sink after you kill another human being? Would somebody who has killed before and regretted it be less likely to kill somebody who angered them, or would some guy who has never squashed a fly be less likely to kill somebody? Maybe killing is a bad example, because who says that's an ineffective means to achieve a goal (some may enjoy it and find it very useful)? Anyway, my bet is those who have experienced the downside of an experience (e.g., burning your hand on the stove) are less likely to make that mistake again. I certainly remember how complicated my Tony Hawk Pro Skater wiki was (written in QuickBasic with tons of goto statements) and wouldn't dare doing something like that in a program of any real complexity. But to a beginner, it might seem perfectly worthwile, even faster, than making "whole" functions "just" to control the flow of code.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
It's right here[^] of course. It is really really cool. SmallBasic Small Basic is a project that's aimed at bringing "fun" back to programming. By providing a small and easy to learn programming language in a friendly and inviting development environment, Small Basic makes programming a breeze. Ideal for kids and adults alike, Small Basic helps beginners take the first step into the wonderful world of programming. * Small Basic derives its inspiration from the original BASIC programming language, and is based on the Microsoft .NET platform. It is really small with just 15 keywords and uses minimal concepts to keep the barrier to entry as low as possible. * The Small Basic development environment is simple, yet provides powerful modern environment features like Intellisense™ and instant context sensitive help. * Small Basic allows third-party libraries to be plugged in with ease, making it possible for the community to extend the experience in fun and interesting ways.
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Why Jonny Can't Code[^] I think this guy's got a point. Things are very, maybe too complex for simple PRINT "Hello World!" type programs today. A lot of today's technologies are not very approachable... You don't start out mountain climbing by first tackling Mt. Everest. You start out much much smaller and work up to Mt. Everest. Where's the BASIC of today. Can you even get BASIC nowadays?
He has no hands...
I don't have ADHD, I have ADOS... Attention Deficit oooh SHINY!! Booger Mobile (n) - A bright green 1964 Ford Falcon - our entry into the Camp Quality esCarpade!! Do something wonderful - make a donation to Camp Quality today!!
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Wow - do you know anything about programming at all ? Visual Basic is, along with C#, one of the most popular languages for Windows development today. The writer is an idiot. He must be looking for a specific version of BASIC. The problem with programming today, is that there's so much drag and drop, point and click, write no code stuff going on that people are taking contract work and hitting a wall the moment they find they need to write code after all, and hitting our ASP.NET forums predominantly, although I notice a real increase in the WPF forum of late. The problem is that people assume it's easier than it really is to write good code, or just plain don't care about good code, and are glad that todays GC environments allow them to write crap that won't actually crash the system, and then sell it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
There's a lot of behind the scenes stuff in VB though, a lot of stuff that might not make sense without in depth knowledge of OOP, the way windows works etc. I'm not sure how much this matters, but back in the old days there was a lot less of this.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I've learned not to kill people
Better watch yourself, I'm still learning how to not kill people :menacing stare: And, actually, I'd say people who have killed probably better understand why one would not want to kill. Sure, you have a superficial understanding of it's wrong and would make you feel bad, but do you really know the depths to which you can really sink after you kill another human being? Would somebody who has killed before and regretted it be less likely to kill somebody who angered them, or would some guy who has never squashed a fly be less likely to kill somebody? Maybe killing is a bad example, because who says that's an ineffective means to achieve a goal (some may enjoy it and find it very useful)? Anyway, my bet is those who have experienced the downside of an experience (e.g., burning your hand on the stove) are less likely to make that mistake again. I certainly remember how complicated my Tony Hawk Pro Skater wiki was (written in QuickBasic with tons of goto statements) and wouldn't dare doing something like that in a program of any real complexity. But to a beginner, it might seem perfectly worthwile, even faster, than making "whole" functions "just" to control the flow of code.
Visual Studio is an excellent GUIIDE.
aspdotnetdev wrote:
Better watch yourself, I'm still learning how to not kill people :menacing stare:
ROTFL !!!
aspdotnetdev wrote:
Anyway, my bet is those who have experienced the downside of an experience (e.g., burning your hand on the stove) are less likely to make that mistake again.
True, but most people who have written bad code, tend to continue to write it that way, in my experience.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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There's a lot of behind the scenes stuff in VB though, a lot of stuff that might not make sense without in depth knowledge of OOP, the way windows works etc. I'm not sure how much this matters, but back in the old days there was a lot less of this.
True, but you can ignore all that at first. One other problem we have today is people looking to do complex things, and who have not taken the time to learn simple things. C# or VB, a beginner should write one class console apps at first, in my book.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
Wow - do you know anything about programming at all ? Visual Basic is, along with C#, one of the most popular languages for Windows development today. The writer is an idiot. He must be looking for a specific version of BASIC. The problem with programming today, is that there's so much drag and drop, point and click, write no code stuff going on that people are taking contract work and hitting a wall the moment they find they need to write code after all, and hitting our ASP.NET forums predominantly, although I notice a real increase in the WPF forum of late. The problem is that people assume it's easier than it really is to write good code, or just plain don't care about good code, and are glad that todays GC environments allow them to write crap that won't actually crash the system, and then sell it.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
In my opinion the drag and drop, any mort can write code thing has really contributed to a lack of depth of knowledge. Often people I've hired or interviewed really know their framework and platform of choice really well but really don't understand how it works together and how the generated code works. So, when I have to hire contractors or consultants I come up with this as bit of a smoke test. I ask them to write me a Hello World app using their favorite language and framework. But, I have one condition, they can't use an IDE. I've found some really good people that way who are more efficient developers than I could ever hope to be. It doesn't really demonstrate a complete command of the inner workings but in my opinion it does show me that they aren't scared of diving into it if we need them to.
And above all things, never think that you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. My belief is that in life people will take you at your own reckoning. --Isaac Asimov Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
modified on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 9:22 PM