Learning programming - 6th grade
-
Jim Crafton wrote:
One of Smalltalk's original reasons for being created was to teach kids programming.
And it turned out to be the generator for buzzwords, time wasters and bad practices (design patterns, extreme programming, refactoring...)
Oh c'mon, that's not Smalltalk's fault. That's due to idiots too dumb to actually program, who instead realized they could make a fortune lecturing/consulting via buzzword bingo. The language itself has a ton of really great features, many of which are now becoming widespread via .Net/Java.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
-
Oh c'mon, that's not Smalltalk's fault. That's due to idiots too dumb to actually program, who instead realized they could make a fortune lecturing/consulting via buzzword bingo. The language itself has a ton of really great features, many of which are now becoming widespread via .Net/Java.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
Jim Crafton wrote:
Oh c'mon, that's not Smalltalk's fault. That's due to idiots too dumb to actually program, who instead realized they could make a fortune lecturing/consulting via buzzword bingo.
True, but all of them used SmallTalk at some point. Coincidence? Don't know.
Jim Crafton wrote:
The language itself has a ton of really great features, many of which are now becoming widespread via .Net/Java.
Most of these cool features I actually dislike: introspection (a.k.a reflection), running on top of a VM, no free functions... One cool feature SmallTalk has - clean and simple syntax - actually got ignored by Java/C# designers who opted for the ugly and error-prone, but more popular C-like approach.
-
I still recommend assembly (not necessarily x86), it doesn't really have syntax so the learning curve doesn't start out being steep (in most languages you can not do anything at all until you already know a lot)
harold aptroot wrote:
I still recommend assembly
Glad to see there are still real programmers around :D
-
This came from a friend this morning: One son is really interested in learning programming. Do you know of any resources for kids to learn on their own ? Not much offered in the 6th grade in our schools. What languages are most people using these days…..or I should say what appears to be the future trends for development ? What would you recommend for a setup if someone wanted to start in terms of hardware and software to start building code and/or websites ? I would suggest Turbo Pascal but I don't think any computers accept the 5 1/4" floppy that I have it on. :) Seriously though, I haven't given it much thought lately. I even looked at some old posts and articles. I'll send the link that came in the CP e-mail this morning http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10375115-2.html[^] , one or two pieces might be useful. Any other ideas?
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown
Visual C++ Express. Seriously. I'm baffled why we are so condescending toward young people thinking they have to be given toy computer languages. I really dislike the idea of using Python. One reason is that it has horrible tool support. With Visual C++ and writing a simple console application, you can step through the code and see what's going on. Another HUGE advantage of learning C (or procedural C++) is that you also learn how computers work. You can be a good programmer while still being ignorant about how computers actually work, but not a great one. (Most veteran developers learned a little bit of Basic, Fortran or Pascal first, but once they really wanted to know computers, that learning was done in assembly or C. The best developers I know all did the bulk of their real learning on one of those languages. The worse developers did the bulk of their learning in Java and other high level "abstract" languages.)
modified on Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:10 PM
-
Visual C++ Express. Seriously. I'm baffled why we are so condescending toward young people thinking they have to be given toy computer languages. I really dislike the idea of using Python. One reason is that it has horrible tool support. With Visual C++ and writing a simple console application, you can step through the code and see what's going on. Another HUGE advantage of learning C (or procedural C++) is that you also learn how computers work. You can be a good programmer while still being ignorant about how computers actually work, but not a great one. (Most veteran developers learned a little bit of Basic, Fortran or Pascal first, but once they really wanted to know computers, that learning was done in assembly or C. The best developers I know all did the bulk of their real learning on one of those languages. The worse developers did the bulk of their learning in Java and other high level "abstract" languages.)
modified on Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:10 PM
Bjarne Stroustrup expresses similar opinions, which I tend to agree with. VC++ Express is free; nice for kids/learning.
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown
-
Jim Crafton wrote:
Oh c'mon, that's not Smalltalk's fault. That's due to idiots too dumb to actually program, who instead realized they could make a fortune lecturing/consulting via buzzword bingo.
True, but all of them used SmallTalk at some point. Coincidence? Don't know.
Jim Crafton wrote:
The language itself has a ton of really great features, many of which are now becoming widespread via .Net/Java.
Most of these cool features I actually dislike: introspection (a.k.a reflection), running on top of a VM, no free functions... One cool feature SmallTalk has - clean and simple syntax - actually got ignored by Java/C# designers who opted for the ugly and error-prone, but more popular C-like approach.
Well running in a VM is definitely *NOT* a feature in my book - I'd wholeheartedly agree with you there. I personally think the right amount of reflection is good, but I think both Java and .Net offer way too much.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF! Personal 3D projects Just Say No to Web 2 Point Blow
-
This came from a friend this morning: One son is really interested in learning programming. Do you know of any resources for kids to learn on their own ? Not much offered in the 6th grade in our schools. What languages are most people using these days…..or I should say what appears to be the future trends for development ? What would you recommend for a setup if someone wanted to start in terms of hardware and software to start building code and/or websites ? I would suggest Turbo Pascal but I don't think any computers accept the 5 1/4" floppy that I have it on. :) Seriously though, I haven't given it much thought lately. I even looked at some old posts and articles. I'll send the link that came in the CP e-mail this morning http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10375115-2.html[^] , one or two pieces might be useful. Any other ideas?
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown
How about a Primer Plus series book and a command-line compiler. That is how I learned when I was 13.
-
Hi, I would go for a simple language and stay away from the "flashy looks, no content" kind of stuff (hence web sites). this[^] might be interesting. :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
Luc Pattyn wrote:
stay away from the "flashy looks, no content"
Hear hear! It seems that's all the kids these days are interested in.
-
This came from a friend this morning: One son is really interested in learning programming. Do you know of any resources for kids to learn on their own ? Not much offered in the 6th grade in our schools. What languages are most people using these days…..or I should say what appears to be the future trends for development ? What would you recommend for a setup if someone wanted to start in terms of hardware and software to start building code and/or websites ? I would suggest Turbo Pascal but I don't think any computers accept the 5 1/4" floppy that I have it on. :) Seriously though, I haven't given it much thought lately. I even looked at some old posts and articles. I'll send the link that came in the CP e-mail this morning http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10375115-2.html[^] , one or two pieces might be useful. Any other ideas?
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown
Teach themselves and don't need parental intervention. Everyone else is destined to be a Click-n-Play programmer. The best thing the parent can do to provide a programming education is to provide 1) A computer (preferable n computers), 2) Provide access to the Internet, 3) Provide money for books, and 4) Allow staying up late to compile.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
-
This came from a friend this morning: One son is really interested in learning programming. Do you know of any resources for kids to learn on their own ? Not much offered in the 6th grade in our schools. What languages are most people using these days…..or I should say what appears to be the future trends for development ? What would you recommend for a setup if someone wanted to start in terms of hardware and software to start building code and/or websites ? I would suggest Turbo Pascal but I don't think any computers accept the 5 1/4" floppy that I have it on. :) Seriously though, I haven't given it much thought lately. I even looked at some old posts and articles. I'll send the link that came in the CP e-mail this morning http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10375115-2.html[^] , one or two pieces might be useful. Any other ideas?
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown
-
Visual C++ Express. Seriously. I'm baffled why we are so condescending toward young people thinking they have to be given toy computer languages. I really dislike the idea of using Python. One reason is that it has horrible tool support. With Visual C++ and writing a simple console application, you can step through the code and see what's going on. Another HUGE advantage of learning C (or procedural C++) is that you also learn how computers work. You can be a good programmer while still being ignorant about how computers actually work, but not a great one. (Most veteran developers learned a little bit of Basic, Fortran or Pascal first, but once they really wanted to know computers, that learning was done in assembly or C. The best developers I know all did the bulk of their real learning on one of those languages. The worse developers did the bulk of their learning in Java and other high level "abstract" languages.)
modified on Thursday, October 15, 2009 2:10 PM
Excellent suggestion!
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
-
How about a Primer Plus series book and a command-line compiler. That is how I learned when I was 13.
Why a 1 vote on that post of CSS? What's wrong?! He's just stating his opinion/experience. :|
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
-
I still recommend assembly (not necessarily x86), it doesn't really have syntax so the learning curve doesn't start out being steep (in most languages you can not do anything at all until you already know a lot)
harold aptroot wrote:
it doesn't really have syntax
:wtf: last time I looked, it had keywords, directives, punctuation requirements, indentation, etc. it may work without semicolons and curly brackets, but it has syntax.
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
-
Why a 1 vote on that post of CSS? What's wrong?! He's just stating his opinion/experience. :|
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
-
harold aptroot wrote:
it doesn't really have syntax
:wtf: last time I looked, it had keywords, directives, punctuation requirements, indentation, etc. it may work without semicolons and curly brackets, but it has syntax.
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
-
lots of syntax there. I forgot to mention macros, nested macros, parameter operations, conditionals, repeats, ... expressions, operators, parentheses, ... :)
Luc Pattyn
I only read code that is properly indented, and rendered in a non-proportional font; hint: use PRE tags in forum messages
Local announcement (Antwerp region): Lange Wapper? Neen!
-
Because he's built up a rubbish reputation in the back room. It's wrong to univote every post, but his reputation has followed him. I don't sympathise with him. FWIW, I didn't univote. In fact, I very rarely vote at all.
OSDev :)
I know the kind of drivel that he posts there (and everywhere else for that matter). However, people should not be voting 1 tirelessly on every single post that he makes; especially not on the ones that are actually sensible.
Computafreak wrote:
I don't sympathise with him.
It's not a matter of sympathy. Some people just vote for the removal of his message, even when there was absolutely nothing offensive in it. That's just plainly wrong and is a misuse of that feature. Which is why I balanced it and voiced my opinion.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
-
Teach themselves and don't need parental intervention. Everyone else is destined to be a Click-n-Play programmer. The best thing the parent can do to provide a programming education is to provide 1) A computer (preferable n computers), 2) Provide access to the Internet, 3) Provide money for books, and 4) Allow staying up late to compile.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Real programmers teach themselves
Klingon developers don't event need it. :-D
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
Click-n-Play programmer
or gimme codez plz plz urgentz programmer. :rolleyes:
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
Teach themselves and don't need parental intervention. Everyone else is destined to be a Click-n-Play programmer. The best thing the parent can do to provide a programming education is to provide 1) A computer (preferable n computers), 2) Provide access to the Internet, 3) Provide money for books, and 4) Allow staying up late to compile.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
- Allow staying up late to compilesurf pron
FTFY :laugh:
------------------------------------- Do not do what has already been done. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.. but it ROCKS absolutely, too.
-
This came from a friend this morning: One son is really interested in learning programming. Do you know of any resources for kids to learn on their own ? Not much offered in the 6th grade in our schools. What languages are most people using these days…..or I should say what appears to be the future trends for development ? What would you recommend for a setup if someone wanted to start in terms of hardware and software to start building code and/or websites ? I would suggest Turbo Pascal but I don't think any computers accept the 5 1/4" floppy that I have it on. :) Seriously though, I haven't given it much thought lately. I even looked at some old posts and articles. I'll send the link that came in the CP e-mail this morning http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10375115-2.html[^] , one or two pieces might be useful. Any other ideas?
SS => Qualified in Submarines "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm". Winston Churchill "Real programmers can write FORTRAN in any language". Unknown