So there was this guy sitting next to me on the train with a Mac notebook...
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
big
Marc Clifton wrote:
Mac
Dang, now I'm hungry.
You want fries with that?
Software Zen:
delete this; -
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
ah, if only every OS was perfect in the business place and you can actually deploy "build once, run everywhere" apps. In my humble opinion, windows(desktop, server, mobile) = average consumer, businesses osx = artsy types (photographers, audio/video editors, etc), people who want to stick it to the man but still like to follow people like sheep. linux = nerds, smarter (new age?) businesses, people who want to stick it to the man and know how its done. In all honesty, I havent used osx for a decent amount of time but I do run (ranked by hours of use) linux (android) on my phone (relevance? yeah i know, i added this in after i wrote the rest) xp on my work pc (windows mobile/asp/desktop development) eeeubuntu on my eeepc 701 (browsing and remote desktopping mostly) ubuntu server edition on my web server windows 7 RC on my desktop pc (probably switch to linux when my RC runs out) xp on my fiancee's slow ass laptop (which she wont let me format) so i think that i am well enough informed to sum up the OS wars to this... They all suck AND they all rule, in their own way. take that to the bank!
-
Christian Graus wrote:
There's still things that I can do better in Windows, but it's power user stuff
That's the problem. I've used Macs on and off for years, but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them, and I'm not willing to dedicate the time required to learn it. Plus I hate the company.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
I've used Macs on and off for years, but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them, and I'm not willing to dedicate the time required to learn it.
This is why I don't ever expect to linux my desktop. The last time I could devote the effort to mastering a new OS (and before I really was a windows power user) was in college (8 years ago), and I was never able to get PPPOE to work to authenticate with the school lan. In between a few weeks of intermittent reboot swear reboot cycles I noticed that win2k didn't fall apart inside of 2 or 3 days like 98 did; after tossing nutscrape 4.7 for opera I could have month long uptimes. From then on mandrake found itself just gathering virtual dust.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
I'm a recent convert to the Mac, though I still own and use several Windows (7) machines. These days, the OS is just a platform. Like someone mentioned, you can get third party apps that duplicate the functionality of Exposé on Windows. To tell you the truth, I still use the app switching keys on the Mac (CMD + Tab) rather than Exposé, which I find useless if I have more than a few apps open. If you ask me, the hardware is the reason to own a Mac. I have one of the new 15" MacBook Pro unibodies. Sweetest machine I've ever owned. The multi-touch trackpad is what sells it for me, I almost never need to hook up an external mouse, which with my Windows laptops is almost a necessity. I've also heard longtime Mac users absolutely pan the multi-touch thing. It's all about what works best for you.
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
Marc Clifton wrote:
Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that?
Not a virtual desktop, but a very useful tool that shows you the open windows (and they slide in/out) and lets you quickly select a window either by clicking or typing a number (in example on the num pad). It also has other features like search, suppport for multiple monitors, etc. I have replaced Win+Tab Vista shortcut with it: Switcher for Windows Vista[^].
-
You want fries with that?
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Chris Maunder wrote:
Not to me. It still is just enough off-centre for me that I'm constantly getting tripped up
Or is it you that's off-centre :-D
Chris Maunder wrote:
And the weight of a decent Mac laptop (ie not an Air and not a Macbook) make them prohibitive for me.
Interesting - what attributes of a laptop are you looking for that the Mac's deficient in?
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
Stuart Dootson wrote:
what attributes of a laptop are you looking for that the Mac's deficient in
An insert key, for one (OK - this is just the Peeve Of The Week due to me being in a remote desktop session with my Windows box through my iMac and accidentally hitting a key combo that put me into overwrite mode and I could not, for the life of me, get out of it) But seriously: - It must be light. - It must have an optical drive - An SSD, or the ability to easily change to an SSD - A right mouse button. No, I will not carry around a mouse. - An SD card slot. I use this constantly and I find it a little cute that Apple deliberately leave this out of the MacBook The Macs look awesome, but my current fave is still the Toshiba Portege R600. Unfortunately it's lack of power is holding me back a little
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
I've always heard this debate between Windows and Mac and recently, as part of a new project, I got a Mac to play with. Here's my take so far: Mac works better than Windows because it has only one Hardware base to worry about. It has absolute control over its software, hardware and to some extent, its end users. Mac staunchly believes in the 80-20 rule. 80% of people only use 20% of the functionality of a computer and Mac caters to that 20% very well. Same with iPhone. For most of us, we stick to our first love (or the first computer that we get our hands on) - if it's a PC, we stick to a PC or if it's Mac, it's a Mac. If you like things like Expose and Spaces, they only were recent additions. Much like Apple borrowed the idea of XP folder panels (left sidebar), tools that gave these functionality existed on Windows long before and in Linux too. They just didn't ship with the OS which is good thing in my opinion as they could be resource (CPU, RAM) intensive and not suitable for average PC buyer unlike Mac which dictates hardware. I miss the maximize window button on Mac (the green + button does its own thing in each app and doesn't maximize window on all builtin Apple apps). I also miss the ability to be able to drag any side/corner of a Window and resize it. In Mac, I've to precisely choose the bottom right corner. Windows gives more customization and flexibility and that is where average users mess their boxes and blame Windows. Of course, its not like Windows is perfect and doesn't have bugs, but by constraining more, Mac appears to be more stable (less things you can break or mess with). This list can go on and on but to me, I think I'd stick to PC as I personally find the Mac theme to be 'girly' :)
-
Christian Graus wrote:
There's still things that I can do better in Windows, but it's power user stuff
That's the problem. I've used Macs on and off for years, but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them, and I'm not willing to dedicate the time required to learn it. Plus I hate the company.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark Wallace wrote:
but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them
...then you must be having Windowsphobia! ;P
Reuse! Buy If You Can! Build If You Must
-
That feature is called expose, I think there are a few implementations for windows. Win7 has aero peek which shows the whole window when you mouse over the thumbnail. There is a video of Win7 where one of the developers mentioned that as they are full size you can differentiate between text much easier. Expose is a lot cooler than Flip-3D but taskbar thumbnails pretty good aswell. You can set windows to go in standby when you close the lid if you want.
-
Stuart Dootson wrote:
what attributes of a laptop are you looking for that the Mac's deficient in
An insert key, for one (OK - this is just the Peeve Of The Week due to me being in a remote desktop session with my Windows box through my iMac and accidentally hitting a key combo that put me into overwrite mode and I could not, for the life of me, get out of it) But seriously: - It must be light. - It must have an optical drive - An SSD, or the ability to easily change to an SSD - A right mouse button. No, I will not carry around a mouse. - An SD card slot. I use this constantly and I find it a little cute that Apple deliberately leave this out of the MacBook The Macs look awesome, but my current fave is still the Toshiba Portege R600. Unfortunately it's lack of power is holding me back a little
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
An insert key
Yeah - I have issues with the Mac keyboard - PgUp, PgDn, Home and End...(I know about Fn+other keys, but still a pain!) Having said that, I do like the ability to type accented and other non-English characters using the Option key.
Chris Maunder wrote:
It must be light
Where 'light' = around 1kg, going by the Toshiba Portege R600, I presume? Yeah, that's a killer. Best you'll do is the 13" MBP @ 2kg.
Chris Maunder wrote:
An SSD, or the ability to easily change to an SSD
Changing disks in an MBP is dead easy - I changed mine to a 500GB drive in about 5 minutes (3 of which were spent finding the right size Pozidrive screwdriver!)
Chris Maunder wrote:
A right mouse button. No, I will not carry around a mouse.
Your only option with a Mac is ctrl+left-click or tap with two fingers
Chris Maunder wrote:
An SD card slot. I use this constantly and I find it a little cute that Apple deliberately leave this out of the MacBook
Something the MBP now has, of course. I got an Expresscard SD card reader, which I leave in my MBP. Works splendidly (although I'm thinking of getting an SSD in an Expresscard[^] to store my Windows 7 VM on, as it hits the disk so much). So - as you say, weight is the real deal-breaker. And the thing is, of course, that the Apple line-up is limited, whereas you're pretty likely to find a non-Apple laptop to match almost any combination of constraints. Well, it could be worse, Chris - I'm likely to be getting a Dell Latitude 5400[^] with Vista (groan) as my 'corporate network connected' PC soon. Just as the rest of the world is thanking their lucky stars that Windows 7 means they don't hav
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
You can have expose for windows. There is an excellent tool called Switcher that will give you the identical effect. It works seamlessly along side all of the other windows switching features of windows as well, including ALT-TAB, Flip3D, Aero Peek, live thumbnails, etc. Switcher: http://insentient.net/ You can feel free to buy a Mac, but owning one myself, I can tell you, their simple beauty is simple for a reason. You can't do a fraction of the things you can do with Windows on a Mac. Windows has and probably alwasy will be a more powerful operating system. With the advent of Windows 7, I believe it is far superior as well.
-
Yeah I always have problems with standby too. On my newest computer my optical drives all disappear after resuming from standby until I either reboot or mess around in device manager scanning for hardware changes etc. On my previous computer the network adapter wouldn't work after standby, etc.
<rant> How many Mac models are out there? How many third-party devices can a Mac notebook be configured with? How price competitive are Macs with all the other notebooks out there? Its easy to have a notebook work perfectly when the manufacturer controlls all the hardware choices and combinations, writes the drivers and the OS, and doesn't have to be cost competitive so they can pay for all the extra engineering it takes to code around all the quirks and iron out all the little bugs. Its a lot harder when you have no choice on what hardware the customer buys, its quality or quirks. When the device drivers are written by someone who isn't n device driver writer expert and doesn't have access to the OS source and engineers. And when the the hardware has to be so cost competitive that parts get substituted all the time, sometimes changing how it behaves in subtle ways. Oh, and lets not forget time to market -- if its not on the shelf yesterday, your sales and marketing people will claim you've lost significant sales to a competitor. Considering all that, its actually amazing Windows works as well as it does. Sadly for Windows, gone are the days when you could spend a bit more on your laptop and get one from a manufactuer who could and would afford to have their engineers fuss over those details. Those laptops always worked better than the bargain ones you could get. That ethic seems to have been eroded away by the bean counters these days. </rant>
patbob
-
Yes, the Mac is just plain easier to use, it makes more sense, etc. There's a bit of a curve if you're used to windows, but I do believe if two people of equal general intelligence with no computer experience picked up a PC or a Mac, the Mac user would get going quicker and end up happier.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
When Macs first came out (in 1984), I was intrigued. The keyboards were hideous and the mouse chunky, but I thought it was the future. Then I used one extensively and hated it. I never did get accustomed to the non-persistent UI model and the single menu bar. When Windows 3.0 came out in 1990, I felt at home immediately and barely looked back. Since then I've used Macs on several occasions and the progress of the experience is almost always the same; "this is nice", "oh, this is nicer", "what the hell?", "stupid piece of shit." This happens even with their damn hardware dual booting into Windows (I really dislike notebooks. Macbooks look great, but are even more annoying to me than normal notebooks.) And what is Apple's obsession with single button mice and really crappy keyboards? Good heavens it's annoying. PS. Several years ago I thought about buying a Mac with the intention of dual booting. When I brought it up with my kids, who used them at school, every one independently said "Macs suck" and gave a litany of reasons, several of which I agreed with, but never mentioned to them since there was no reason to. This reinforces my theory that Windows UI simply clicks with more people than the Mac UI (especially in regards to persistence--while it permeates the UI of both, how Mac menus act vs. Windows is the simplest example.)
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
I had the same experience when I saw someone minimizing a window. It goes down to the dock (task bar in Windows) as if it is sucked there by a vacuum cleaner. It's called the Genie effect. Very neat, too! My next laptop after that experience was a MacBook Pro. I run Windows with VMWare, because I am a VB.NET developer after all, but I use my Mac as a source of inspiration for my own work. Ever since, I try to make my own Windows Forms as self-evident as the Mac's ones. Only put the necessary buttons and labels, and nothing else. Use plenty of spacing. Etc. I'm very happy with my Mac.
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them
...then you must be having Windowsphobia! ;P
Reuse! Buy If You Can! Build If You Must
Phelia, Shirley?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Mark Wallace wrote:
I've used Macs on and off for years, but I can't do half of what I do on a Win box with them, and I'm not willing to dedicate the time required to learn it.
This is why I don't ever expect to linux my desktop. The last time I could devote the effort to mastering a new OS (and before I really was a windows power user) was in college (8 years ago), and I was never able to get PPPOE to work to authenticate with the school lan. In between a few weeks of intermittent reboot swear reboot cycles I noticed that win2k didn't fall apart inside of 2 or 3 days like 98 did; after tossing nutscrape 4.7 for opera I could have month long uptimes. From then on mandrake found itself just gathering virtual dust.
3x12=36 2x12=24 1x12=12 0x12=18
I've got an Ubuntu box at home that's almost never booted, completely contrarily to the Windows boxes, which are almost never shut down (and then only to reboot after updates). It's the Linux update policy that drives me crazy. Every time I boot the Ubuntu box, there are thousands of updates for the OS and the various stuff I've got installed on it. If you're a dev working on Linux, I imagine that would be exciting, seeing what people have added and (hopefully) improved, but as a user it's a right royal pain. I've also got (counts) seven Centos VMs at the office (remote, using labManager). I never, ever update anything on them, because I can't be arsed to go through the huge (slow loading) list of updates to see what is required, what is useful, what is a good idea, etc. They've got to fix that, if they want normal humans to use the OS. Keeping it as a devs' playground is a complete turn-off to anyone who is not part of the build process.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
-
Marc Clifton wrote:
Impressed the heck out of me.
Probably an Apple salesman/marketer. Seriously though, this all sounds wonderful (which it probably is) but how much impact would these features have on your ability to get your work done better/faster.
You're reply did make me wonder for a second if maybe he was one of those gorilla marketers you read about. Then I put in a tiny effort and clicked on Marc's profile. He's probably not working for Apple.
-
... and I was, I guess they call it, shoulder surfing... anyways, I was impressed. The color scheme was very pleasing, and he would do this awesome thing where all the windows that were open were reduced in size, but you could still read the tiny text and see what the window was, and then he'd click on something and it would zoom in to full size. It was like having a virtual desktop that was bigger than the screen. It looked like it was soooo easy to navigate between apps. Why can't Microsoft do something like that? The Win-Tab thing is a joke, I never use it. I guess Microsoft doesn't want to get sued. Is there any third party out there that makes a virtual desktop that does something like that? And then, he put his notebook away, and later on pulled it out and opened it, and instantly (like as if tachyons knew he was going to open it before he himself did) the OS was up and running with all the apps and he just kept on working. It was amazing. Makes me want to go and buy a Mac notebook. That's probably what I've been missing, is watching someone who really knows how to use the OS. Impressed the heck out of me. Then again, I guess I'm easily impressed, if all it took was watching this guy twiddle his windows and close and open his notebook. :-O Marc
I'm not overthinking the problem, I just felt like I needed a small, unimportant, uninteresting rant! - Martin Hart Turner
It sounds like the Spaces virtual desktops. That is nice, but be aware there are some apps it doesn't work for and gets very confused. I'd really recommend spending some time with OSX before you spend the $$$ because there are other things you do day-to-day that are pretty annoying on the Mac, though that is hard if you don't have access to one to play with. I've been running Windows 7 RC 64-bit on a June 09 Macbook Pro BootCamped (so not using virtualization). It actually makes a very nice Windows laptop (despite some driver bugs). Suspend and resume are instantaneous, it is really a stunning improvement over Vista. It does have something like Expose (to hide all the windows), but it doesn't have virtual desktops built in as far as I can find. Too bad, but at least they made it much easier to switch between apps. Since I have both OS's installed I can use either one for my day-to-day web surfing etc, and I much prefer Windows 7, but I force myself to use OSX just to try to see what's in the kool-aid. Until a recent OSX update Windows 7 was actually considerably faster at reacquiring the secured wifi at the office than OSX was. But Apple did fix that in a point release. (WHAT? Point release? You've probably heard that OSX "just worked" with no patching etc. but in fact they put out point releases pretty frequently). On Windows 7 I can customize much more of the appearance of the UI and desktop than I can on OSX, where Steve Jobs has decided the two color schemes I can choose between, with no tweaking allowed. I don't want a garish UI, but I do want to make it look the way I prefer. It's a minor thing but I was really surprised that Apple's control of the UI look and feel extended to such a point that I can't define my own colors for window title bars etc. I'm not letting Windows off the hook - I'd still like to be able to do more with setting inactive windows more transparent etc. I also like being able to resize a window from any edge ;) I'm not kidding, it's a little thorn every time you try to do some of the little things that Windows lets you do, like drag a window wider from the left edge, and you wonder why, oh why, doesn't Apple do something so simple instead of making you grab the menu bar, move the whole window over, and then move to the bottom right corner to finally drag the size the way you wanted in the first place. It must just be stubbornness at this point. Also, it's ridiculous that Apple still won't let their gadgets run on the desktop, you have to switch to a whole d
-
You're reply did make me wonder for a second if maybe he was one of those gorilla marketers you read about. Then I put in a tiny effort and clicked on Marc's profile. He's probably not working for Apple.