Defining "Entry Level" (A Rant)
-
I'm posting this in the hopes that it will get to the hiring managers and recruiters who claim that they will "accept" entry-level candidates, but reject them, out of hand, when they dare to apply to those so-called "entry-level" positions. First a definition: perhaps I'm "old school" in my thinking, but where I come from, "Entry-Level" means that a candidate possesses the necessary skills, however, they don't yet have enough practical work experience. In other words, a person who likely has academic experience in the job their applying for, but 0 to perhaps 1 year of "real work" experience. Hence the term ENTRY LEVEL - the candidate seeks to ENTER into the job and GAIN the experience. That said, I have found myself on the receiving end of the "Your resume looks good, but you don't have enough experience as a *insert career here*" speech for EVERY "entry level" position I've applied for. Did I miss something??? Isn't that the point??? That IS what it means to be "ENTRY level"! Personally, I would advise those who are seeking to hire new candidates to change the wording of their open positions to read as "intermediate" or "mid-level" if they are indeed seeking anyone with 3 or more years of experience. If hiring mangers are going to advertise for "ENTRY level" candidates, then they shouldn't be surprised when they're inundated with "recent grads" or people seeking to change careers. One final note: don't be so quick to reject those recent grads and people seeking to change careers, when we DO apply for those "entry level" positions; because we're eager to apply ourselves, the shot you give us, might be JUST the opportunity to make your company grow....
======================= Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned A. Stevens B.S., Computer Science
today's economy is far tighter than it's been in the 16+ years i've been doing this. companies can pick and choose, and demand more for less. today's entry level is 2006's junior.
-
Oh, and FYI, there is a "rant" icon you can select when posting a message to the Lounge. This message isn't a rant, but I'll select that icon so you can see what I'm talking about. :)
Haha, a 1-vote... really? Really?
-
They are posting for entry level because that is the pay they are willing to offer. So, when they post the add they are managing an applicants expectations for pay. Unfortunately, it is just how the market can be at times when there are a lot of people looking for work.
And above all things, never think that you're not good enough yourself. A man should never think that. My belief is that in life people will take you at your own reckoning. --Isaac Asimov Avoid the crowd. Do your own thinking independently. Be the chess player, not the chess piece. --Ralph Charell
Yes, and one applicant willing to work for below their pay scale, is all they need. they will get that.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
I'm posting this in the hopes that it will get to the hiring managers and recruiters who claim that they will "accept" entry-level candidates, but reject them, out of hand, when they dare to apply to those so-called "entry-level" positions. First a definition: perhaps I'm "old school" in my thinking, but where I come from, "Entry-Level" means that a candidate possesses the necessary skills, however, they don't yet have enough practical work experience. In other words, a person who likely has academic experience in the job their applying for, but 0 to perhaps 1 year of "real work" experience. Hence the term ENTRY LEVEL - the candidate seeks to ENTER into the job and GAIN the experience. That said, I have found myself on the receiving end of the "Your resume looks good, but you don't have enough experience as a *insert career here*" speech for EVERY "entry level" position I've applied for. Did I miss something??? Isn't that the point??? That IS what it means to be "ENTRY level"! Personally, I would advise those who are seeking to hire new candidates to change the wording of their open positions to read as "intermediate" or "mid-level" if they are indeed seeking anyone with 3 or more years of experience. If hiring mangers are going to advertise for "ENTRY level" candidates, then they shouldn't be surprised when they're inundated with "recent grads" or people seeking to change careers. One final note: don't be so quick to reject those recent grads and people seeking to change careers, when we DO apply for those "entry level" positions; because we're eager to apply ourselves, the shot you give us, might be JUST the opportunity to make your company grow....
======================= Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned A. Stevens B.S., Computer Science
It works both ways. Imagine seeing ads for "Senior Level" developers with 2 to 3 years of experience.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
-
Yes, and one applicant willing to work for below their pay scale, is all they need. they will get that.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
-
Haha, a 1-vote... really? Really?
Well, at least a 3 is a step in the right direction.
-
Well, at least a 3 is a step in the right direction.
Hmm, 2 votes that amount to 3.67, eh? Maybe this "directional voting" theory has some merit. I wonder what happens after I get a 5. Does it overflow and I end up back at 1? Or does it plateau and stay at 5? Perhaps it's asymptotic and never actually reaches 5...
-
I'm posting this in the hopes that it will get to the hiring managers and recruiters who claim that they will "accept" entry-level candidates, but reject them, out of hand, when they dare to apply to those so-called "entry-level" positions. First a definition: perhaps I'm "old school" in my thinking, but where I come from, "Entry-Level" means that a candidate possesses the necessary skills, however, they don't yet have enough practical work experience. In other words, a person who likely has academic experience in the job their applying for, but 0 to perhaps 1 year of "real work" experience. Hence the term ENTRY LEVEL - the candidate seeks to ENTER into the job and GAIN the experience. That said, I have found myself on the receiving end of the "Your resume looks good, but you don't have enough experience as a *insert career here*" speech for EVERY "entry level" position I've applied for. Did I miss something??? Isn't that the point??? That IS what it means to be "ENTRY level"! Personally, I would advise those who are seeking to hire new candidates to change the wording of their open positions to read as "intermediate" or "mid-level" if they are indeed seeking anyone with 3 or more years of experience. If hiring mangers are going to advertise for "ENTRY level" candidates, then they shouldn't be surprised when they're inundated with "recent grads" or people seeking to change careers. One final note: don't be so quick to reject those recent grads and people seeking to change careers, when we DO apply for those "entry level" positions; because we're eager to apply ourselves, the shot you give us, might be JUST the opportunity to make your company grow....
======================= Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned A. Stevens B.S., Computer Science
DRAYKKO wrote:
First a definition: perhaps I'm "old school" in my thinking, but where I come from, "Entry-Level" means that a candidate possesses the necessary skills, however, they don't yet have enough practical work experience.
I would disagree. To me, "entry level" means you are looking for someone who has the ability to develop the skills, not someone who has the skills now.
-
DRAYKKO wrote:
First a definition: perhaps I'm "old school" in my thinking, but where I come from, "Entry-Level" means that a candidate possesses the necessary skills, however, they don't yet have enough practical work experience.
I would disagree. To me, "entry level" means you are looking for someone who has the ability to develop the skills, not someone who has the skills now.
That's a good point. I was thinking about it in terms of say someone who's received the training, and has "skills", in that capacity. But you're definition is definitely on point. Either way, I understand "entry level" as someone who is coming in on the ground floor and therefore may not have enough real world experience; and will acquire that experience and indeed develop his/her skills (as you eloquently stated). :thumbsup:
======================= Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned A. Stevens B.S., Computer Science
-
It works both ways. Imagine seeing ads for "Senior Level" developers with 2 to 3 years of experience.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
This is a very interesting point. It seems that the hiring companies "define" what is considered entry, junior, intermediate, what have you. So it's very hard for those trying to get a foot in the door, to figure out which jobs they qualify for. And even worse for those of us at the mid-point of our careers and seeking to change. And for us "entry level" .NET developers, it looks like the only option is to do our own consulting (which can be a mine field, in and of itself, what with all the stuff you have to set up to be "self-employed"). It's all very confusing.... :confused:
======================= Every experience in life is a lesson to be learned A. Stevens B.S., Computer Science