Toyota Acceleration Issues
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Like I said
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
> Like I said I won't argue the point that people in general can be stupid (all of us are to some degree or other). However, you made an assertion when you wrote that "those that are stupid will argue and those that aren't don't need an explanation." You didn't provide evidence for such wide ranging claim, so your "Like I said" really doesn't mean anything. Have nice day!
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If you have a car with a manual gearbox! You really can't do that in an automatic and it is probably asking too much of most drivers to do both whilst heartily panicking :-)
Tychotics: take us back to the moon "Life, for ever dying to be born afresh, for ever young and eager, will presently stand upon this earth as upon a footstool, and stretch out its realm amidst the stars." H. G. Wells
Even automatics have Neutral. But all the posts defending those who didn't know how to put their car in Neutral show how many people don't know or don't think about these things - and so crash at 100mph and blame the manufacturer. Blame the manufacturer for your engine blowing out because you HAD to put the car in neutral - but don't blame them for killing you because you don't know how to drive. 40,000 people/year die from auto accidents (often at the fault of others), yet we still hand every 16 year old with basic motor skills a license - and then worry about cell phone radiation causing cancer, or swine flu killing a couple hundred people, or terrorists a couple thousand. Then we complain about the subsidies to the train system, without realizing that automobiles (via the vast highway system) are actually granted much larger subsidies. And thats before taking into consideration research and bailout money.
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Which - to be technical and nit-picky - is still between P and D: P*ND* vs *RND*
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Plus its a lot easier to do so, no pesky clutch to deal with. In my car it takes quite a feat of strength to get the car out of gear without a clutch (You know in-case the clutch and the accelerator fail at the same time) wheras in an automatic an accidental tap is enough to bring neutral.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
I'm gonna have to agree with Stuart on this one. When I had a manual transmission (which I much preferred), it had a problem with dying while idling (due to age of the car, not the type of transmission). I developed the skill of slipping into a neutral when coming to a stop so that I could keep the gas pedal slightly depressed while holding the brake (an advanced technique I ended up developing involved letting it die and then popping the clutch with the last little bit of forward momentum, but that's a completely different story). With all this fancy footwork going on, it sure was handy that the manual transmission definitively does NOT require the clutch to be depressed to slide out of gear, but rather only when you're trying to get into gear. On the automatic transmission I'm driving now (stupid America and our stupid reliance on automatics! That was all I could find) there's a button you have to press to get out of Drive. If you're having to apply any pressure to your manual transmission to get it out of gear and into Neutral, then it sounds like you've already got some weird problem with your transmission that you might want to have someone take a look at, because that is definitely not the way it should be.
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
Why don't people just turn off the engine?
Most modern cars have power steering. If the engine were to be switched off you would then be in the position of not only going quite fast but also of it being potentially difficult to steer out of danger (although the steering should lighten at higher speeds). Best to stand on the brakes to attempt to slow the car to a stop.
Tychotics: take us back to the moon "Life, for ever dying to be born afresh, for ever young and eager, will presently stand upon this earth as upon a footstool, and stretch out its realm amidst the stars." H. G. Wells
Put the transmission in neutral. Better yet, reverse ;)
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I'm gonna have to agree with Stuart on this one. When I had a manual transmission (which I much preferred), it had a problem with dying while idling (due to age of the car, not the type of transmission). I developed the skill of slipping into a neutral when coming to a stop so that I could keep the gas pedal slightly depressed while holding the brake (an advanced technique I ended up developing involved letting it die and then popping the clutch with the last little bit of forward momentum, but that's a completely different story). With all this fancy footwork going on, it sure was handy that the manual transmission definitively does NOT require the clutch to be depressed to slide out of gear, but rather only when you're trying to get into gear. On the automatic transmission I'm driving now (stupid America and our stupid reliance on automatics! That was all I could find) there's a button you have to press to get out of Drive. If you're having to apply any pressure to your manual transmission to get it out of gear and into Neutral, then it sounds like you've already got some weird problem with your transmission that you might want to have someone take a look at, because that is definitely not the way it should be.
My transmission was rebuilt less than a year ago by the only factory technician in Ga. that had actual experience with said transmission. That said however, I have a very heavy racing clutch and a built engine. You can agree all you want on how my car should perform but I am the one that has to drive it and am intimately aware of how it should perform since I have replaced most of the goodies on it. (Free advice: An Engine Swap while fun is ridiculously expensive. Just supercharge) Now if you want to talk about difficult try shifting into First or Second before the tranny warms up when it is below freezing. I usually just use third instead on really cold days until a few miles are on it.
Need custom software developed? I do custom programming based primarily on MS tools with an emphasis on C# development and consulting. A man said to the universe: "Sir I exist!" "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me A sense of obligation." --Stephen Crane
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
Why don't people just turn off the engine?
Most modern cars have power steering. If the engine were to be switched off you would then be in the position of not only going quite fast but also of it being potentially difficult to steer out of danger (although the steering should lighten at higher speeds). Best to stand on the brakes to attempt to slow the car to a stop.
Tychotics: take us back to the moon "Life, for ever dying to be born afresh, for ever young and eager, will presently stand upon this earth as upon a footstool, and stretch out its realm amidst the stars." H. G. Wells
Agreed (although 'standing on the brakes' perhaps needs to bre taken with a grain of salt - over breaking and skidding won't help either). Additionally, since these people are probably panicking/in shock, there is the possiblity they will remove the key entirely and activate the steering lock, which would be very bad for the same reasons.
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> Like I said I won't argue the point that people in general can be stupid (all of us are to some degree or other). However, you made an assertion when you wrote that "those that are stupid will argue and those that aren't don't need an explanation." You didn't provide evidence for such wide ranging claim, so your "Like I said" really doesn't mean anything. Have nice day!
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I think his "Like I said" hits the nail on the head. As they say on the TV show Family Feud - "Good answer, good answer." :)
Gary
In his initial post he wrote "People are stupid". Then he wrote "I was going to make a long post describing my statement but there is no need". That's like writing a function header but not the actual implementation. His statement is meaningless because it is so general and unsubstantiated. On the other hand, I have to agree with him. Perhaps I'm too pedantic =)))))))) Chris
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It is relatively difficult to find a standard transmission for sale in the US anymore.
not really. the honda civic si vw jetta toyota/nissan/ford/gmc/chevy trucks mazda speed3 mini cooper real and bmw versions jeeps blah blah blah....
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Chris Losinger wrote:
plus, you know, he was busy trying to control a strange car going way too fast while everybody in the car was probably screaming.
He had time to pick up his phone, dial 911 and explain the problem before crashing fatally. That was plenty of time to knock it into neutral (or even reverse, which at best, slows the car down, at worst, slows it down a bit then stalls the engine and destroys the gearbox - either way better than crashing at the car's maximum speed), stand on the brake, pull the handbrake and knock off the engine. Anything other than panic on the phone. Also, the guy was a traffic cop??
He did not make the call - it was one of the passengers. If you listened to the tape you would not hear any panic or screaming until the last seconds before the crash.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
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He did not make the call - it was one of the passengers. If you listened to the tape you would not hear any panic or screaming until the last seconds before the crash.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
Snowman58 wrote:
If you listened to the tape you would not hear any panic or screaming until the last seconds before the crash.
Then that's even worse. At least panic would explain the complete failure to take any one of a number of actions which would have saved their lives (and which should have been blindingly obvious). How they managed to make a calm phone call but not knock the gearbox into neutral, stand on the brake, pull the handbrake or turn off the engine is all the more confusing.
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Snowman58 wrote:
If you listened to the tape you would not hear any panic or screaming until the last seconds before the crash.
Then that's even worse. At least panic would explain the complete failure to take any one of a number of actions which would have saved their lives (and which should have been blindingly obvious). How they managed to make a calm phone call but not knock the gearbox into neutral, stand on the brake, pull the handbrake or turn off the engine is all the more confusing.
See my post further down - it was not so "blindingly obvious" as you might think. Dept of Transportation drivers had similar problems in stopping a car when they simulated the problem (at a much lower speed).
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
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Richard Andrew x64 wrote:
Why don't people just turn off the engine?
Most modern cars have power steering. If the engine were to be switched off you would then be in the position of not only going quite fast but also of it being potentially difficult to steer out of danger (although the steering should lighten at higher speeds). Best to stand on the brakes to attempt to slow the car to a stop.
Tychotics: take us back to the moon "Life, for ever dying to be born afresh, for ever young and eager, will presently stand upon this earth as upon a footstool, and stretch out its realm amidst the stars." H. G. Wells
You can still turn a wheel with the power steering off. If the engine is switched off, you also lose your vaccuum assisted brakes. But you can STILL use them, you just need to literally put your back in to it. A person of average strength could have controlled the car for the short time it would take to guide your car and stand on the brakes. Most modern cars also disregard the throttle input if you even touch the brakes. I know Volvos and European Fords do. So all you'd have to do in this instance.... is press the brakes. If you were to shift it in to Neutral, you would NOT blow the engine as the engines are fitted with fuel/spark cut rev limiters. This would also give you power steering and vaccuum assisted braking. Either way, not doing ANYTHING and PHONING someone is the most ridiculous of ANY other option. Even slowly griding your car against the central reservation would be a less retarded thing to do. I've had a throttle stick WIDE open on a supercharged 700kg 200bhp hatchback once. If I'd had dipped the clutch, it would have smashed the supercharger in 30 seconds (G-Lader) So I stood on the brakes (single piston sliding caliper useless things) and that WORKED, when they started to get hot and I was near an exit, I turned off the engine and brought the car to a stop. All this was done in a panic, in the dark and rain, with other traffic around me at 70mph. I'd also only been driving for 2 years at the time. Anybody like this guy who killed himself and his poor family should be taken off the road. It's terrifying to think that someone as brain dead as that could be behind me. And this isn't an elitist rant, this should be OBVIOUS information to ANYone who thinks they should be on the road with other people in a dangerous machine. tl;dr http://www.sniffpetrol.com/[^]
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a) in some cars you can't turn the engine off while it's driving b) when you're going that fast you don't need power steering.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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I can't understand the stories of people who crashed after going 100+ mph in Toyota cars due to unintended acceleration. Why don't people just turn off the engine?
Call me crazy, but don't all cars have brake pedals? :)
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In the crash that got all the attention, the driver was a California Highway Patrol officer driving a dealer loaner while his car was in for service. As an CHP officer he had extensive high speed driver training, so he was probably better equipped to handle this incident than most. The car he was driving reportedly had a keyless ignition button that had to be held for three seconds before your could shut off the engine. The car he owned did not have this feature; he probably tried to shut off the engine but in the heat of the moment forgot about the button or did not have a third hand free to hold the button while steering. The DOT had a similar problem shutting off the car during it's testing. The brakes were burned out, so obviously braking was not sufficient to overcome the engine. Why he did not shift into neutral or a lower gear is not so clear. There has been speculation that the computer locked out shifting at those engine RPMs(to protect the engine), but I have not seen a clear answer. (Anyone out there willing to push their new Toyota to 100MPH and shift it into neutral with the throttle floored? :confused:) So it is not as simple as "stupid driver". There is usually a strong component of design error that only becomes apparent in retrospect in these types of incident. Similar to the resent luge racer's death. The course was perfectly safe when everything goes as planned. But it suddenly revealed a fatal flaw (exposed steel poles and low retaining walls) that no one noticed until the unexpected happens.
Melting Away www.deals-house.com www.innovative--concepts.com
modified on Wednesday, February 17, 2010 10:40 PM
Why would he (or the DOT) need both hands on the wheel to reach the ignition button? Was it on the other side of the car or something? Also, as a highway patrol officer, shifting it into neutral should have indeed been "blindingly obvious". I don't see any indication that he even tried it, although your speculation that the gearbox ECU refused to allow a shift out of drive is worth testing. Perhaps some modern ECUs will refuse to shift into, say, reverse while travelling forwards at a high speed, etc, in the same way that tiptronic gear shifts with autoboxes can be ignored/delayed by the ECU under certain conditions (like "it would send the revs too high" as you suggest)... I wouldn't expect such a limitation to apply to shifting out of gear, but then again, perhaps they thought "shifting from drive to neutral with the accelerator floored is bad, why would anyone do that?". Definitely worth testing (by an independent testing company, not yours or mine... even if I had a nice new car I wouldn't try that even on axle stands :D). Sure, there are some design (and serious usability) errors from Toyota and they should be rectified ASAP, but that doesn't negate the fact that there were options which are obvious to anyone with a clue how cars work.
