Infinite Universe and random number generators.
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Steve Wellens wrote:
Sure, and somewhere, sometime, it's possible that someone will flip a coin 50 times and get heads every time.
I usually seem to get Heads almost all of the time when I flip a coin anyway ;P
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
I usually seem to get Heads almost all of the time when I flip a coin anyway
Trick to make a coin always give heads - "Have a dime with a dab of wax or double-sided adhesive tape upon it. Secretly attach this dime to the tail side of the half dollar. Spin the coin in the air, and the dime will not be seen. The coin is caught in the hand, and it will generally fall head up; if it does not, the magician can instantly detect it, and turn it over as he opens his hand." :)
Me, I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest.
Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for...modified on Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:20 PM
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Yes. When I was a lot younger, I tried to produce a compression method that used random number generators to reproduce the original file from a seed. Didn't spot the little flaw in the idea too quickly...
You should never use standby on an elephant. It always crashes when you lift the ears. - Mark Wallace C/C++ (I dont see a huge difference between them, and the 'benefits' of C++ are questionable, who needs inheritance when you have copy and paste) - fat_boy
I remember one april fools day seeing a site that had a new compression algorithm. Represent a file as binary. That's 1s and 0s. 0 means nothing, so throw them away. All you have are 1s, so just compress that, and you get a super small file. I spent a day arguing with a guy at work that this was awesome, b/c he was too dumb to see it was a joke.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
More :beer: or more :java:; take your pick; it's obvious you need more of one or the other.
Software Zen:
delete this;
Fold With Us![^] -
I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
You don't need an infinite universe, in our world there must be already several outsorced random generators that keep generating always the same number. :rolleyes:
If the Lord God Almighty had consulted me before embarking upon the Creation, I would have recommended something simpler. -- Alfonso the Wise, 13th Century King of Castile.
This is going on my arrogant assumptions. You may have a superb reason why I'm completely wrong. -- Iain Clarke
[My articles] -
I remember one april fools day seeing a site that had a new compression algorithm. Represent a file as binary. That's 1s and 0s. 0 means nothing, so throw them away. All you have are 1s, so just compress that, and you get a super small file. I spent a day arguing with a guy at work that this was awesome, b/c he was too dumb to see it was a joke.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Reminds me of the method of compression that promises a 1-byte reduction in file size each time it is run. The implication is that it could compress any file to 0 bytes if it was run enough times. Of course, that is impossible, but it seemed to work. Turns out, it was just storing the "compressed" data in the filename rather than in the file.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
That's true, and it's also true that situations that are arbitrarily similar to events that have happened will exist as well. You don't even need parallel universes to have alternate Earth's where you are super rich or the Nazi's won or all the Star Trek scenarios happen. You just need a truly infinite space.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
if the Universe really is infinite
It isn't, more than likely.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again
If you have an infinite number of [fair] generators, this is possible. The problem you are having is because of the way humans perceive probability. Think of a coin tossed three times. Three heads is just as likely as three tails, two heads with one tails and two tails with one heads. All possible outcome sets have equal probability, it is just psychologically more notable if the three heads come up. This principle extends to your number generator.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist.
Only if an infinite number if generators exist. The probability of a generator being created over a unit of space (and/or time) can change in such a way that even in an infinite universe an non-infinite number of generators exits. [edit] Wasn't this a Dilbert or XKCD cartoon? [Edit 2] Both! http://xkcd.com/221/[^] http://www.random.org/analysis/dilbert.jpg[^]
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter.
modified on Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:07 PM
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That's true, and it's also true that situations that are arbitrarily similar to events that have happened will exist as well. You don't even need parallel universes to have alternate Earth's where you are super rich or the Nazi's won or all the Star Trek scenarios happen. You just need a truly infinite space.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
I read a Scientific American article saying that, given the number of quantum states used to fully represent the earth, there should be an exact replica every n cubic light years (n was large). But that does not mean the states leading up to it were the same, nor the following. For that, as you go further into the past or future, the average volume required would go to infinity, very quickly. One tick of quantum time would multiply the volume by the number of quantum states the earth has. One second is 10^44 units of Plank time. Think about how huge that gets for any appreciably large (measurable) amount of time. If kind of says that if there are parallel universes, we have 0 hope of getting to them.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
Yes.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
if the Universe really is infinite
It isn't, more than likely.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again
If you have an infinite number of [fair] generators, this is possible. The problem you are having is because of the way humans perceive probability. Think of a coin tossed three times. Three heads is just as likely as three tails, two heads with one tails and two tails with one heads. All possible outcome sets have equal probability, it is just psychologically more notable if the three heads come up. This principle extends to your number generator.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist.
Only if an infinite number if generators exist. The probability of a generator being created over a unit of space (and/or time) can change in such a way that even in an infinite universe an non-infinite number of generators exits. [edit] Wasn't this a Dilbert or XKCD cartoon? [Edit 2] Both! http://xkcd.com/221/[^] http://www.random.org/analysis/dilbert.jpg[^]
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter.
modified on Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:07 PM
Pedant alert!
Keith Barrow wrote:
Three heads is just as likely as three tails, two heads with one tails and two tails with one heads. All possible outcome sets have equal probability
For each instance. In this particular example, you are 100% right because the probability of either is equivalent, namely 1/2, but imagine some other test where the probabilities are 1/4 and 1/4 and 1/2? You would need to qualify it :) Hey, don't look at me, its 9:30 and I've been up 6 and I've had 4 cups of coffee!
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
My head hurts Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
You're trying to explain the Infinite Improbability Drive. It's been done.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
the Universe really is infinite
But is it infinite enough? :-D
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Of course that is assuming you have an infinite amount of time... I wonder if we truly understand the thought of "infinite" :)
Rocky <>< Recent Blog Post: CubeTube – Power work are from ambient light!
Rocky Moore wrote:
I wonder if we truly understand the thought of "infinite"
I very much doubt it. It's too much an unreal concept for the human brain to comprehend. Although, there was one particular mathematician on the recent Horizon program who vehemently dismissed the possibility of infinity because he couldn't get his head round the idea. His theory was, that if you kept adding one to a number you would eventually go full circle and end up at zero. Weird or what? But as it can't be proved that infinity actually exists, he might well be right.
No trees were harmed in the posting of this missive; however, a large number of quantum states were changed.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
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Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
if the Universe really is infinite
It isn't, more than likely.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again
If you have an infinite number of [fair] generators, this is possible. The problem you are having is because of the way humans perceive probability. Think of a coin tossed three times. Three heads is just as likely as three tails, two heads with one tails and two tails with one heads. All possible outcome sets have equal probability, it is just psychologically more notable if the three heads come up. This principle extends to your number generator.
Lloyd Atkinson☺ wrote:
because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist.
Only if an infinite number if generators exist. The probability of a generator being created over a unit of space (and/or time) can change in such a way that even in an infinite universe an non-infinite number of generators exits. [edit] Wasn't this a Dilbert or XKCD cartoon? [Edit 2] Both! http://xkcd.com/221/[^] http://www.random.org/analysis/dilbert.jpg[^]
Dalek Dave: There are many words that some find offensive, Homosexuality, Alcoholism, Religion, Visual Basic, Manchester United, Butter.
modified on Saturday, February 27, 2010 1:07 PM
Keith Barrow wrote:
The probability of a generator being created over a unit of space (and/or time) can change in such a way that even in an infinite universe an non-infinite number of generators exits.
if you're talking about a truly infinite universe then even considering varying probabilities of the existence of random number generators, you still end up with an infinite number of random number generators; it's just a smaller infinity than the size of the universe, but no less infinite.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
:-) Interesting 'Infinite Monkey Theorem' :) . I think that it should be possible as few reverse engineering tools might use this concept. Karthik Balaguru
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Keith Barrow wrote:
The probability of a generator being created over a unit of space (and/or time) can change in such a way that even in an infinite universe an non-infinite number of generators exits.
if you're talking about a truly infinite universe then even considering varying probabilities of the existence of random number generators, you still end up with an infinite number of random number generators; it's just a smaller infinity than the size of the universe, but no less infinite.
That's not fair .. I was just starting to get a handle on this conversation .. just :)
The only thing unpredictable about me is just how predictable I'm going to be.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Didn't spot the little flaw in the idea too quickly...
Recently on the BBC's Horizon programme, they showed a computer program that generated random letters to type the works of Shakespeare... it had been running about two weeks and had managed to type the grand total of the first sentence of his works :-O
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
First Folio Edition? Original or modern spelling?
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
IMHO, No. I don't think you would ever have a fair random umber generator that would always produce the same number. You could have one that would produce a very very long sequence that was all that same. As the odds of this are very small but still greater than zero. But the odds that a single random number generator produces a specific infinite sequence, such as all the same number, is zero. So it doesn't matter how many generators you have the probability still approaches zero.
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I got this idea from the Infinite monkey theorem, which states that: "The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare." On that basis, that means that if the Universe really is infinite, then somewhere there must be a random number generator that keeps producing the same number over and over again simply because in an infinite Universe, however small the chance/probability is, a random number generator that produces the same number every time must exist. My head hurts :) Does anyone understand what I'm trying to explain?
I know you believe you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant.
I recently read the book Programming the Universe, by Seth Lloyd. I think it was this book, that talked about the infinite monkey theorem. And the probability that the monkeys could write shakespear given a keyboard with only letters numbers and puncutation, would be (1/(number of keys on the keyboard)^(number of letters in a shakespear book)) which is an enourmously small chance. One is more likely to create a simulated Universe in a very powerfull computer that will be able to output a Universe the same as ours. and also, a random number generator that produces the same number every time, is not a random number generator at all, by the definition of random.
