MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?
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Thanks for the music :) Also, Microsoft's top developers prefer old-fashioned coding[^]: "I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
A few years ago am MS dev posted in a forum that they didn't use VC++ to build Windows but an unspecified "variety of tools."
Kevin
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A few years ago am MS dev posted in a forum that they didn't use VC++ to build Windows but an unspecified "variety of tools."
Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
unspecified "variety of tools."
Chewing gum, duct tape, string, wing, and prayer.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Dario Solera wrote:
but I rarely use it
As a part of my nightly build and before a client release, my automated build script runs and builds everything. It goes and boots a fresh virtual machine in 5 different OSes (Vista, XP, Windows 7, WIndows 2008 and WIndows 2003). A start up script in each VM automatically install the application (using command line tools) and automatically run several scripted tests (on the fresh machines) and validate several things. That has been one of the best thing I ever spent time on because it has simplified my workflow a lot.
That needs to be immortalized in an article Rama.
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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Hear hear! "Use the right tool for the right job." -- Scotty et al Use a visual tool when designing something visual; use a text editor when writing text.
...and don't implement the text editor using WPF...
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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I need them. Just like D@nish said everything has it's own use. I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence. Text editor(s) such as emac or notepad++ or... and ar OK when programming in dynamic/scripting languages. Or a small console program in C/C++/C#/Java/etc. Why? Simply beacause being a dynamic language reduces a lot the risk of typing errors. You don't have to write
System.Security.Cryptography.ETC myCrypto(nian)
you just write something like
var myCrypto
But then again I don't see a big program standing on dynamic/scripting languages. I'm not trying to knock them down(the dynamic/scriping stuff) just that they are usefull in small client interfaces or OS scripting or... => small/quick programs/solutions. And not in Creating a robust Bussiness Logic around them, or game or...
who says you can't have code completion & intellisense in emacs or vim? I have vim setup for project wide intellisense for both C/C++ and PHP. And I can compile with a key press and check syntax with a keypress, unit tests, build scripts.... everything but the visual part but that's OK because the stuff I'm doing right now aren't visual (or windows based even).
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
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I need them. Just like D@nish said everything has it's own use. I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence. Text editor(s) such as emac or notepad++ or... and ar OK when programming in dynamic/scripting languages. Or a small console program in C/C++/C#/Java/etc. Why? Simply beacause being a dynamic language reduces a lot the risk of typing errors. You don't have to write
System.Security.Cryptography.ETC myCrypto(nian)
you just write something like
var myCrypto
But then again I don't see a big program standing on dynamic/scripting languages. I'm not trying to knock them down(the dynamic/scriping stuff) just that they are usefull in small client interfaces or OS scripting or... => small/quick programs/solutions. And not in Creating a robust Bussiness Logic around them, or game or...
MDL=>Moshu wrote:
I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence
I can, I was around when things weren't so easy ;)
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
"I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
I still have to find a real developer that things "graphical" programming is better than writing code.
If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality. A mental illness, maybe, but not a personality. [Charlie Brooker] ScrewTurn Wiki and My Software Startup
It depends. I am a developer, having coded for all my professional life, but when I can do something with the UI without it getting on my nerves, I do it. I like LINQ To Entities for its balanced approach (graphical for the heavy plumbing, code for the details), and I also prefer Blend to VS for Silverlight and WPF UI coding. On the other hand, I am a quite visual and kinesthetic person, so drawing a UML diagram often helps me understand a notion. I use them as visual aids for the specifications, but I've never seen something good automatically-generated from them.
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Thanks for the music :) Also, Microsoft's top developers prefer old-fashioned coding[^]: "I will fight you if you try to take away my text editor," said Don Box, a Microsoft distinguished engineer
Sorry to say, Jeff Vroom (the author of the quoted article) has a LOT to learn about programming tools and why they exist. But lighter-weight tools offer a more rapid edit/test cycle with less waiting time. The command line remains one of the most powerful and fastest ways to interact with your system. Uh, nope. I've been in situations where I only had VIM and command line tools, and in situations where I was only developing in Visual C# in the IDE.. there is no difference I can think of in speed of the edit/test cycle. I DID see differences based on processor power.. but that is to be expected. Command line workflows offer a more flexible, less integrated and less guided approach to development. They also make integrations with programming libraries happen less easily. IDEs can help with those integrations.. So, in a way, the command line helps as a check against too much corporate or political control over our computing infrastructure. Uh, coding is not a social experiment. Last time I checked I coded for folks that pay me a check bi-weekly. That means that the company gets a big say in what tools I use.. and typically they have good reasons for making those choices. This sounds more like an excerpt from a marxist tract than a technical reason why IDEs aren't good or useful. Finally.. just a simple note.. The IDEs, in and of themselves, are simply tools.. I find great use for them in certain circumstances, and where they fall short, I have other tools that meet those needs. No single company is able to completely meet all the needs I have.. that said.. there is a LOT to be said about the speed of development using a more modern library (say .NET) vs. a simpler system that doesn't come with the kitchen sink as a library. When I was coding in .NET I was a LOT more productive in raw terms. Tasks that would take me 2 weeks on Linux would take me 2 days in .NET.. All those bells and whistles means I don't have to figure out which 5 3rd party tools I need to use in my project.. I can just code it up and keep moving. Are there gaps? Sure.. but from my perspective they are minor.
modified on Monday, March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
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Sorry to say, Jeff Vroom (the author of the quoted article) has a LOT to learn about programming tools and why they exist. But lighter-weight tools offer a more rapid edit/test cycle with less waiting time. The command line remains one of the most powerful and fastest ways to interact with your system. Uh, nope. I've been in situations where I only had VIM and command line tools, and in situations where I was only developing in Visual C# in the IDE.. there is no difference I can think of in speed of the edit/test cycle. I DID see differences based on processor power.. but that is to be expected. Command line workflows offer a more flexible, less integrated and less guided approach to development. They also make integrations with programming libraries happen less easily. IDEs can help with those integrations.. So, in a way, the command line helps as a check against too much corporate or political control over our computing infrastructure. Uh, coding is not a social experiment. Last time I checked I coded for folks that pay me a check bi-weekly. That means that the company gets a big say in what tools I use.. and typically they have good reasons for making those choices. This sounds more like an excerpt from a marxist tract than a technical reason why IDEs aren't good or useful. Finally.. just a simple note.. The IDEs, in and of themselves, are simply tools.. I find great use for them in certain circumstances, and where they fall short, I have other tools that meet those needs. No single company is able to completely meet all the needs I have.. that said.. there is a LOT to be said about the speed of development using a more modern library (say .NET) vs. a simpler system that doesn't come with the kitchen sink as a library. When I was coding in .NET I was a LOT more productive in raw terms. Tasks that would take me 2 weeks on Linux would take me 2 days in .NET.. All those bells and whistles means I don't have to figure out which 5 3rd party tools I need to use in my project.. I can just code it up and keep moving. Are there gaps? Sure.. but from my perspective they are minor.
modified on Monday, March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
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Right on... Should keep our eyes on the ball. At the end of the day it's all about getting the job done and not about some ideological agenda.
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MDL=>Moshu wrote:
I can't imagine programming in C# without Intellisence
I can, I was around when things weren't so easy ;)
same here.. 1982 was my first job.. BIG changes in the industry since then. Intellisense rocks for sure, but I produced quality code without it.. The biggest point in all of this is effort in vs. quality out. I find that somewhat difficult to measure overall (since here are so many things pulling on my time in my job), but it IS notable that using the VS2008 IDE means I don't have to personally invest time to get all the nice bells and whistles.. I just install it and it is there.. the most time intensive thing I do to the IDE is set up my key mappings the way I want them. The rest is just go go go. That is a HUGE difference between an modern IDE vs. VIM/Emacs/whateva. Those tools are fine, but require a personal investment that I can't justify given normal time-constraints. THAT is what no one has yet talked about.. the value I provide to a company has nothing to do with improving my tools (EMacs/VIM/whateva), its about creating shippable code. Given a choice, I'll choose pathways that get me the most productive the fastest, and keep my tool-fiddling to a minimum. THAT provides the best value for my employer, and affects my personal bottom line the best. If you need a concrete measure.. try this. If you make 100K a year, you are making $50 an hour. So a tool like Visual Slickedit (just as an example), which is worth about $250, is worth about 5 hours of my time. If it takes me 10-20 hours to make freeware look like SlickEdit, I've just wasted a whole bunch of hours I could use for other pursuits (hours I could bill!). There are other ways to justify that time (if you are trying to learn about something in technology, etc.), but using pure productivity measures, its a dead loss. Something to think about...
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Sorry to say, Jeff Vroom (the author of the quoted article) has a LOT to learn about programming tools and why they exist. But lighter-weight tools offer a more rapid edit/test cycle with less waiting time. The command line remains one of the most powerful and fastest ways to interact with your system. Uh, nope. I've been in situations where I only had VIM and command line tools, and in situations where I was only developing in Visual C# in the IDE.. there is no difference I can think of in speed of the edit/test cycle. I DID see differences based on processor power.. but that is to be expected. Command line workflows offer a more flexible, less integrated and less guided approach to development. They also make integrations with programming libraries happen less easily. IDEs can help with those integrations.. So, in a way, the command line helps as a check against too much corporate or political control over our computing infrastructure. Uh, coding is not a social experiment. Last time I checked I coded for folks that pay me a check bi-weekly. That means that the company gets a big say in what tools I use.. and typically they have good reasons for making those choices. This sounds more like an excerpt from a marxist tract than a technical reason why IDEs aren't good or useful. Finally.. just a simple note.. The IDEs, in and of themselves, are simply tools.. I find great use for them in certain circumstances, and where they fall short, I have other tools that meet those needs. No single company is able to completely meet all the needs I have.. that said.. there is a LOT to be said about the speed of development using a more modern library (say .NET) vs. a simpler system that doesn't come with the kitchen sink as a library. When I was coding in .NET I was a LOT more productive in raw terms. Tasks that would take me 2 weeks on Linux would take me 2 days in .NET.. All those bells and whistles means I don't have to figure out which 5 3rd party tools I need to use in my project.. I can just code it up and keep moving. Are there gaps? Sure.. but from my perspective they are minor.
modified on Monday, March 1, 2010 4:57 PM
For that matter, using the old computer cards were more efficient. You only need to create them once then reuse them again in different programs. All you need to do is keep them sorted and easily accessible. Also, better for reusability. I still prefer the IDE of VS. I can quickly see if my code correctly compiles with the click of the mouse. The IDE even automatically checks my code as I type it for a quicker response. I don't have to type in something like: cc myfile.cs myotherfile.cs ... /X /Y /Z That was just too painful. Code analyzers are quicker to activate from and IDE. VS allows 3rd parties to add functions and utilities to the IDE that can be activates with a simple mouse click. For example, Resharper provides a great deal of code analysis and refactoring capabilites with minimal work. Utilities like GhostDoc provide code documentation and commenting. Even code snippets are easier to apply. WCF proxy generation is extremely easy in the IDE rather than using the command line utility. The IDE is much better for producing code.
modified on Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:42 AM
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same here.. 1982 was my first job.. BIG changes in the industry since then. Intellisense rocks for sure, but I produced quality code without it.. The biggest point in all of this is effort in vs. quality out. I find that somewhat difficult to measure overall (since here are so many things pulling on my time in my job), but it IS notable that using the VS2008 IDE means I don't have to personally invest time to get all the nice bells and whistles.. I just install it and it is there.. the most time intensive thing I do to the IDE is set up my key mappings the way I want them. The rest is just go go go. That is a HUGE difference between an modern IDE vs. VIM/Emacs/whateva. Those tools are fine, but require a personal investment that I can't justify given normal time-constraints. THAT is what no one has yet talked about.. the value I provide to a company has nothing to do with improving my tools (EMacs/VIM/whateva), its about creating shippable code. Given a choice, I'll choose pathways that get me the most productive the fastest, and keep my tool-fiddling to a minimum. THAT provides the best value for my employer, and affects my personal bottom line the best. If you need a concrete measure.. try this. If you make 100K a year, you are making $50 an hour. So a tool like Visual Slickedit (just as an example), which is worth about $250, is worth about 5 hours of my time. If it takes me 10-20 hours to make freeware look like SlickEdit, I've just wasted a whole bunch of hours I could use for other pursuits (hours I could bill!). There are other ways to justify that time (if you are trying to learn about something in technology, etc.), but using pure productivity measures, its a dead loss. Something to think about...
After all apparently Dave Cutler uses Slick Edit :)
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Music to Nemanja Trifunovic's ears... MS and Oracle's big dev tools - who needs 'em?[^]
Kevin
Developer working on different projects in different languages, and have to deliver quickly, what else than IDE can help?
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who says you can't have code completion & intellisense in emacs or vim? I have vim setup for project wide intellisense for both C/C++ and PHP. And I can compile with a key press and check syntax with a keypress, unit tests, build scripts.... everything but the visual part but that's OK because the stuff I'm doing right now aren't visual (or windows based even).
If the post was helpful, please vote, eh! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
who says you can't have code completion & intellisense in emacs or vim? I have vim setup for project wide intellisense for both C/C++ and PHP. And I can compile with a key press and check syntax with a keypress, unit tests, build scripts...
Sounds to me like you put together your own IDE :)
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For that matter, using the old computer cards were more efficient. You only need to create them once then reuse them again in different programs. All you need to do is keep them sorted and easily accessible. Also, better for reusability. I still prefer the IDE of VS. I can quickly see if my code correctly compiles with the click of the mouse. The IDE even automatically checks my code as I type it for a quicker response. I don't have to type in something like: cc myfile.cs myotherfile.cs ... /X /Y /Z That was just too painful. Code analyzers are quicker to activate from and IDE. VS allows 3rd parties to add functions and utilities to the IDE that can be activates with a simple mouse click. For example, Resharper provides a great deal of code analysis and refactoring capabilites with minimal work. Utilities like GhostDoc provide code documentation and commenting. Even code snippets are easier to apply. WCF proxy generation is extremely easy in the IDE rather than using the command line utility. The IDE is much better for producing code.
modified on Wednesday, March 3, 2010 1:42 AM