Cost of a tetanus shot in the US
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Welcome to the backwards bizzaro world of the collectivist, where private monopolies are bad, but monopolies enforced at the point of a gun, are just great! Canadians who profess that they're getting "better" health care with a nationalized health system are not paying attention. Do you realize that MRI waiting times are shorter for DOGS in Canada than they are for humans? Why is that? To the OP: the reason that the cost of an individual procedure is so high in the US is threefold: 1. The baby boom - the largest segment of our population is approaching the age where they need more and more medical care. More demand equals higher prices, until the supply catches up. Health care supply (in terms of doctors and nurses) can take almost two decades to ramp up. 2. More and more distortion of the market by government subsidies. IIRC, around 42% of health care dollars come from public sources. Each government subsidy puts me, the consumer, in the unfortunate position of competing against an infinite supply of taxpayer money for a doctor's care. (What would happen to the price of Apples if uncle Obama furnished 30% of families with a voucher that allowed them to get reimbursed for the Apples they buy?) 3. The fallacy of insurance. Insurance, like all collectivist systems, separates the consumer from the cost of the supply or good being bought, so there is less incentive for the consumer to shop around - hence, no consumer-enforced price control. (Who cares how much an x-ray costs? The cost to me is always $100 no matter where I go.) There are other more minor factors too: many illegals and low-income families go to emergency room for all care, then don't even try to pay the bill - the hospital has to pad your bill to recoup those costs; violence in America is a contributor; tort lawsuits; etc. Eric
Hired Mind wrote:
Welcome to the backwards bizzaro world of the collectivist, where private monopolies are bad, but monopolies enforced at the point of a gun, are just great!
In Canada, there is no monopoly. Health services are provided by a conglomerate of sources, many are private companies/hospitals/doctors, and the govt. just pays for it all using tax dollars, while also regulating prices. The biggest fear of monopolies is price fixing, and since the govt. foots the bill here, that isn't a concern.
Hired Mind wrote:
Canadians who profess that they're getting "better" health care with a nationalized health system are not paying attention. Do you realize that MRI waiting times are shorter for DOGS in Canada than they are for humans? Why is that?
You imply there is a direct link between a nationalized health system and long wait times, but that is in accurate. Your point 1 about baby boomers is happening here too, except they all get the health services they need instead of just the ones with insurance. That is one of the reasons we have a shortage of health care professionals, and as such some wait lines like MRI are long. That's a cherry picked item though, and most services aren't like that. Fixing it is the focus, and that will happen soon. I personally know 4 people who left their jobs to become doctors or nurses because of the shortage. The money is there to be had, thus an influx of resources are on their way.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
Going to the emergency room was your mistake. You should've waited and just seen a dentist or your normal doctor. Never go to the emergency room unless you're about to die. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time and money. I know that sounds ridiculous but that's what I've found to be true here. :thumbsdown:
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gleat wrote:
Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
Obama, I heard.
Agh! Reality! My Archnemesis![^]
| FoldWithUs! | sighist | µLaunch - program launcher for server core and hyper-v server.Has anyone watched the Colbert Report? Our meds are more expensive, and everyone knows you get what you pay for, so ours are obviously better.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
Seven months ago I had a medical situation that required three ambulance trips to the hospital, a one month stay in the hospital with about a week in intensive care, numerous MRI's, CT scans, and Xrays, and expensive ($20000) transfusion treatments. I felt well cared for with prompt treatment throughout. As a Canadian, the direct cost to me was $0. I don't know what it would have cost in the US, but I suspect it would have totally ruined me financally.
73
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zievo wrote:
costs are generally cheaper in Canada due to Federal regulation. For example, prescription drugs are substantially lower in Canada than the US. Cross-border purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually.
Costs are cheaper because they are subsidized by taxpayers. You probably end up paying more do to bureaucracy and lack of choice. They get your money no matter what, and you have no say in how it is spent.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
I come from Greece. I just verified that a tetanus shot costs 6€ to the hospital. The whole process of doing it, costs max 30' to the doctor, ie (with all charges, even if the hospital was actually not owning the room and had to pay for that during these 30', or even a whole hour (counting the hours the hospital is closed)) max 100€. Total 106€, ie about 140$. Ok, it is normal for the shot to cost more in the states (doctors are paid more etc etc). But from 140$ to 1350$, there is a difference... So no, in the end you don't pay more.
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People have their reasons. Many perceive the bill as representing government take-over of health care and consequently a step towards socialism! The "public option" clause which allows the government to be one of the choices John Q. Public will have when selecting an insurance provider has raised the hackles of many big private insurance companies as they feel they could never compete with a government option which is backed by tax payers. Add to that the muscle-flexing by the lobbyists ($1.4 million[^] are being spent on average every single day by lobbyists apparently to have their cause heard on the floor) and you have what you see going on!
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
The fact that socialism is so demonized in the States is ridiculous. Insights from socialism have changed capitalism and helped it survive, particularly through its crises (1930 in the States, 68 in France and Germany). A good mix is often the best way.
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Hired Mind wrote:
Welcome to the backwards bizzaro world of the collectivist, where private monopolies are bad, but monopolies enforced at the point of a gun, are just great!
In Canada, there is no monopoly. Health services are provided by a conglomerate of sources, many are private companies/hospitals/doctors, and the govt. just pays for it all using tax dollars, while also regulating prices. The biggest fear of monopolies is price fixing, and since the govt. foots the bill here, that isn't a concern.
Hired Mind wrote:
Canadians who profess that they're getting "better" health care with a nationalized health system are not paying attention. Do you realize that MRI waiting times are shorter for DOGS in Canada than they are for humans? Why is that?
You imply there is a direct link between a nationalized health system and long wait times, but that is in accurate. Your point 1 about baby boomers is happening here too, except they all get the health services they need instead of just the ones with insurance. That is one of the reasons we have a shortage of health care professionals, and as such some wait lines like MRI are long. That's a cherry picked item though, and most services aren't like that. Fixing it is the focus, and that will happen soon. I personally know 4 people who left their jobs to become doctors or nurses because of the shortage. The money is there to be had, thus an influx of resources are on their way.
the Zievo dude is completely right. I can't believe how you USA folks are funky and uptight when it comes down to your country issues. Most of Europe has the same health care system as Canada, and it's seems "free" for us, because we pay our taxes no matter what (you do, too, don't tell me you're avoiding taxes??). In France, Germany, Poland, even in SERBIA when you're sick, if you're paying your taxes normally like everybody else, you get health care FOR FREE, meaning, I get sick, I can go to doctors, hospital, I can get medication and even operations FOR FREE (meaning I just get up and head on home, and not a single bill comes to my house for that, ever). USA isn't the greatest (and by far) not the smartest running country in the world. Deal with it. $764 for a tetanus shot? Outrageous.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
I have experienced healthcare in both the US and the UK. Given a choice, UK healthcare wins hands down. I have never experienced anything worse than the bureaucracy, over-complexity and inefficiency of US healthcare system. For a country that spends more on health care than any other country in the world. What a waste of money. There appears to be some kind of delusional thinking here in the US from people that the US healthcare is the best in the world; note that these people have little or no experience with other healthcare systems. Well wake up it's not, infact it sucks! Americans need to put aside ideology and admit.... It's broken and needs fixing.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
The cost of the tetanus shot is basically just as high in Canada as the US, and more than likely, higher because of all the extra hands the money has to go through because of the government "paying" the bill. Just as in the US the "rich," those with insurance, are paying for the "poor," who don't have insurance, the same thing is happening in Canada where the "rich" are paying for the "poor." Of course the "poor" think they are getting all this for free, but someone, somewhere is paying for it. Some are paying their own way in taxes, others are paying much more than their own way because they make more money than the average Joe, and some pay very little. A lot of people think this is "fair." That's because most people are not in the "rich" category. I have found that when people are allowed to make a lot of money, and keep a lot of what they make, generally, they make more money than they would if they don't get to keep a lot of what they make. Hey, if I don't work hard but the government "pays" for everything for me, why work any more than absolutely necessary? Generally, this is not a conscience thought, but it sure happens.
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zievo wrote:
costs are generally cheaper in Canada due to Federal regulation. For example, prescription drugs are substantially lower in Canada than the US. Cross-border purchasing has been estimated at $1 billion annually.
Costs are cheaper because they are subsidized by taxpayers. You probably end up paying more do to bureaucracy and lack of choice. They get your money no matter what, and you have no say in how it is spent.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
You don't get it. At least everyone in Canada gets the treatment. I lived and worked in the US my entire life and I am embarrassed at how many working citizens don't have medical coverage or have inadequate medical coverage. Not because they choose to not be covered but because they can't afford it. We are supposed to be the "richest" and most "powerful" nation in the world, yet we let our own people get sick and die because of money. Disgusting! Don't even bring up the meds. Why do we produce the medication in the US and then charge 10 times more for them here then we do in Canada, Mexico and other countries? Because the pharmaceutical companies are in the wallets of almost every US politician, that's why. It's all about money in the US, not health!
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We don't have those problems in Canada, because health care is free. I can't imagine why people would trust for-profit corporations to run critical services such as health care? Obama seems to get it. Every 1st world country except USA seems to get it. Not to turn this into a heavy political debate, but from a distance, it seems quite unintelligent that people are fighting him on it.
Even a so called "3rd World" country like Brazil has free health care (including free AIDS medicine distribution). The quality is not good in many regions (have to wait long hours to get seen) but still...
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We don't have those problems in Canada, because health care is free. I can't imagine why people would trust for-profit corporations to run critical services such as health care? Obama seems to get it. Every 1st world country except USA seems to get it. Not to turn this into a heavy political debate, but from a distance, it seems quite unintelligent that people are fighting him on it.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
If you want to see more detail check out how much the same care would have cost at your physician. (As a note unless your are bleeding seriously you should go to a physician instead next time.) Comparing the hospital bill from my son's visit to what a doctor would bill I found that most things cost 6 times more at the hospital. Part of this is because the paying people make up for the deadbeats. But it is still outrageous.
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A few weeks back I had a close personal encounter with centrifugal physics when I swung my tennis racquet rather unnecessarily hard and found it not only completely missing the ball but also hurtling straight for my face side-on. A resounding thwack later I found myself spitting pieces of one of my teeth out. As it turned out I had broken one of my front teeth clean in half. Friends insisted that I go to the ER and go I did. They took one look at it and said, well, you've got to go see a dentist. After 1.5 hours of thumb twiddling they gave me a tetanus shot and sent me on my way after depriving me of $100. I walked away thinking, "$100 for a tetanus shot?! Outrageous!". Fast forward a week or two when I find myself staring at a bill in the mail in disbelief. Cost of the treatment is given as $1,087.20 :omg:. I am thinking, this is surely a typo! I log on to the insurance website to see what was submitted for the claim and there I find another claim for $294 apart from the other thousand. The hospital submitted a claim for $1,381.20 and the insurance company actually paid $664.00. Add the $100 I paid and you arrive at a grand total of $764 for one measly injection! While my personal liability was only $100, I find the idea that the hospital thought that the service was worth $1,481.20 a bit mind-boggling. When I did a little googling about this, I found articles where the rationale appears to be that ERs run 24/7 all 365 days of the year and are required by law to treat all patients regardless of whether they have insurance or not and that a good chunk of the service they provide goes uncompensated and are therefore forced to distribute that cost among other patients who do happen to be insured. I am not sure that I find that completely convincing. Does anyone else think there's something broken with this system?
-- gleat http://blogorama.nerdworks.in[^] --
Do you think Obama's healthcare initiative will help correct these problems?
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We don't have those problems in Canada, because health care is free. I can't imagine why people would trust for-profit corporations to run critical services such as health care? Obama seems to get it. Every 1st world country except USA seems to get it. Not to turn this into a heavy political debate, but from a distance, it seems quite unintelligent that people are fighting him on it.
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Far as I know, Obama hasn't actually changed anything yet. He's trying to, but he's still fighting with Congress to get something done.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)Obama is an EMPLOYEE of the pharmaceutical and insurance corporations. He's AGAINST the public option, and AGAINST Medicare for all, since these would cut into the profits of the corporations that financed his campaign. Affordable dependable medical insurance is just a campaign slogan the Democrats use to trick liberals into voting for them. The only party calling for Medicare for all is the Green Party, who I support. Coincidentally, they're also the only party that doesn't accept ANY corporate money. Obama struck a "secret" deal with the hospital corporations that there would be NO meaningful public option, which is the opposite of what he fooled his supporters into thinking. Here's a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/the-real-reason-obamas-pl_b_473924.html[^]
modified on Tuesday, March 2, 2010 11:21 AM
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You don't get it. At least everyone in Canada gets the treatment. I lived and worked in the US my entire life and I am embarrassed at how many working citizens don't have medical coverage or have inadequate medical coverage. Not because they choose to not be covered but because they can't afford it. We are supposed to be the "richest" and most "powerful" nation in the world, yet we let our own people get sick and die because of money. Disgusting! Don't even bring up the meds. Why do we produce the medication in the US and then charge 10 times more for them here then we do in Canada, Mexico and other countries? Because the pharmaceutical companies are in the wallets of almost every US politician, that's why. It's all about money in the US, not health!
I 'love it' when people throw out the bureaucracy card. The CEO of the company that handles the health insurance we have, is paid $7,000,000,000 dollars. It's a big job, I'll be generous. Let's pay them double the US presidents income - Say $800,000? There's $6,200,000 of bureaucracy in ONE INSURER, ONE STAFF MEMBER that doesn't go towards health treatment.
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Nobody is going without basic health care in this country.
That's just an utterly ignorant statement. I personally know people who go without basic health care because it would mean that they lose their houses. Their mortgage is currently lower than even the cheapest rents ($600/mo), so they would probably be homeless if they need any kind of emergency health care.
Never mind the lady that was pregnant, couldn't afford pre-natal care, and the had to have a C-section for a 12 lb stillborn due to diabetes. Or the 25 yr old guy that committed suicide due to perceived issues over large medical bills from an accident (Personally I'd have taken the bankruptcy route first) To all those that object to socialised health care - I presume you are against taxes paying for roads too?
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An interesting infographic... Health care costs arounds the world[^]
Here's another that shows a more stark difference... http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php Life expectancy vs Health care expenditure http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost\_longlife75.gif
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The fact that socialism is so demonized in the States is ridiculous. Insights from socialism have changed capitalism and helped it survive, particularly through its crises (1930 in the States, 68 in France and Germany). A good mix is often the best way.
If socialism is so much better, why does the world come to the US for help in all aspects of life. Any time there is a natural disaster 80% of the aid comes from the US. Any time a dictator invades his neighbors, the US sends 90% of the military force to help push them back. (not just Iraq but look back over the last 100 years) And why if socialized medicine is so great do people from all over Europe and Canada, and the rest of the world come to the US for specialized care. Socializing any aspect of life takes away the drive for improvement. What reward can I possibly get from spending my life working towards making something better when the government thinks what we have is good enough. vis a vis the world coming to the US for better care. Beyond that, as crazy as our tax code is people in the US pay less tax than most first world countries and typically by 20%. No our system is not perfect but socializing is probably not the answer. Improving Medicare/Medicaid would go much further for a short term fix then would buy time to consider the costs of a further reaching program. The problem with what the Obama administration is doing is they are trying to eat the whole elephant in one bite. That also means they don't really know what they are getting into for the long run and if it fails we are all worse off than where we stand today.
